Mumbai under attack

[OverUnderPump]

Kudos Abhijeet.
The sooner our pacifist bleeding heart types realize that gun restriction only works on the law abiding types the better. I hope they wake up from their fairy tale reverie and join the cause.

regards

OUP

[art_collector]

Yesterday in the news there was a story about the lack of proper bullet proof jackets . I was rather shocked to see the jacket that the ATS chief was given to wear . Not only our 303 rifles out dated our bullet proof jackets too are.

There are rules to be followed when purchases are made by the government departments /army.The lowest bidder wins . No thought is given to the quality.And the result is there for all of us to see that some of our best officers got killed because of the faulty jackets which would not even stop a 32 calibre bullet...AK 47 bullet is altogether a different story I often have people inquiring from us where bullet proof jackets can be had.A few years back we had a similar inquiry for jackets.Everyone had the same list which included 50000 tablets Disprin, kerosene stoves, blankets and air gun pellets. When I mentioned that the bullet proof jackets are not sold in the market...the man who had come to inquire about it said "Koi baat nahin banwaa lengee ...lohee kee chaddar per hara kapra hi to lagana hai"

When you have such suppliers & such quality control how can you expect our brave officers to be saved from bullets...The report said that a lot of jackets supplied in 2001 was found to be defective. The supplier changed it...and the lot replaced was also not upto the standard...and still the jackets were issued to the personnel for use.

[cottage cheese]

Yesterday in the news there was a story about the lack of proper bullet proof jackets . I was rather shocked to see the jacket that the ATS chief was given to wear . Not only our 303 rifles out dated our bullet proof jackets too are.

There are rules to be followed when purchases are made by the government departments /army.The lowest bidder wins . No thought is given to the quality.And the result is there for all of us to see that some of our best officers got killed because of the faulty jackets which would not even stop a 32 calibre bullet...AK 47 bullet is altogether a different story I often have people inquiring from us where bullet proof jackets can be had.A few years back we had a similar inquiry for jackets.Everyone had the same list which included 50000 tablets Disprin, kerosene stoves, blankets and air gun pellets. When I mentioned that the bullet proof jackets are not sold in the market...the man who had come to inquire about it said "Koi baat nahin banwaa lengee ...lohee kee chaddar per hara kapra hi to lagana hai"

When you have such suppliers & such quality control how can you expect our brave officers to be saved from bullets...The report said that a lot of jackets supplied in 2001 was found to be defective. The supplier changed it...and the lot replaced was also not upto the standard...and still the jackets were issued to the personnel for use.

Wonder who these suppliers or manufacturers are.

As I observed, almost all the cops were wearing 'inner-wear' type body armor. These are meant to be worn almost like a vest under the shirt for everyday wear. Most often, they are below Threat Level III - just about adequate protection against most pistol caliber rounds fired from hand guns, and certainly not rifle caliber rounds. No wonder they all tragically went down like ninepins.

I remember back in the 90's when our local police received the first batch of spectra fibre body armor, some gung-ho and somewhat ignorant officers, decided to test them- went to the range, placed the vests and helmets (PASGT type) in the range and let go with AKs- full penetration was achieved and they cynically declared the vests as 'defective' - they actually weren't they just weren't designed for TL-III+ protection- HQ had in fact ordered TL-II stuff. So the question of 'defective' is misplaced. Rather decision and procurement is where the defect lies most of the time.

This vital fact is not transmitted to the end user most times. The sooner they realize this fact, the better.

Additionally, there is no such thing as Bullet-proof. The establishment should know that.

The establishment actually thought, at one point of time, they could achieve just that, and our great defense researchers went ahead and designed the 9.5kilo vest. The army scrapped the whole thing in no time. I'm told most of these were 'inherited' by the Police and paramilitary Absolutely junk and a liability. The weight slowed down the user and compounded fatigue. As I know, we had three KIAs here because of the 9.5kilo vest.

Then, of course, the question of QC and also shady suppliers. They should be pulled up on charges of treason.

[Sujay]

There is a fleeting mention in one news portal that MARCOS refused to go inside Hotel Taj, citing...they were not trained for such operations. They fired from outside into the Hotel.

Could this be true ? Read page no 2 of


http://tinyurl.com/57nsk4

[penpusher]

Tried posting this at the NDTV forums but could not,so I will post it here.


The Indian Arms Act of 1887 was designed to disarm the Indian people in the wake of the uprising of 1857.Indian leaders had protested against this Act as being discriminatory.Our British masters included a set of stringent rules as riders and imposed a high import duty on arms while curbing or banning their import in India, with the sole objective of discouraging Indians from acquiring arms.The Indian Arms Act of 1959 is in fact just an amended version of the the Arms Act of 1887.

The Indian National Congress had included the Right to bear arms in the list of Fundamental Rights that it had said would be included in any future Constitution of India.However,once India gained independence,this was conveniently forgotten.

The Indian Arms(Amendment)Bill(No.49 of 1953) laid down the following as it's objectives:-

"The objects of the Bill are:
(a)To exclude knives,spears,bows and arrows from the definition of arms;
(b)to classify firearms and other prohibited weapons so as to ensure-
(i)that dangerous weapons of military patterns are not available to civilians,particularly the anti-social elements;
(ii)that weapons for self defence are available for all citizens under license unless their antecedents or propensities do not disentitle them from the privilege;and
(iii)that fire-arms required for training purposes and ordinary civilian use are made more easily available on permits;
(c)to co-ordinate the rights of citizens with the necessity of maintaining law and order and avoiding fifth column activity in the country;
(d)to recognize the right of the sate to requisition the services of every citizen in national emergencies.The licensee and permit holder for fire-arms,shikaris,target shooters and riflemen in general(in appropriate age-groups) will be of great service to the country in emergencies if the Government can properly mobilize and utilize them."

Now think about whether this has taken place.

This is an extract taken from the Minutes of Dissent of one of the Members of the Joint Committee.I think you will all recognize him-

(Shri Atal Bihari Vajapayee)
"The present bill seeks to repeal the Indian Arms Act enacted by the British rulers eighty years ago with a view to disarm the whole nation.Apart from the considerations of safeguarding the Empire,this policy of depriving the whole people of arms was motivated in the main by a sense of deep mistrust and an attitude of contempt towards the Indian people.I am sorry to note that even after twelve years of Independence,the present government have not been able to shake off completely the legacy of their predecessors.The present Bill as reported by the Joint Committee is an improvement on the original Bill no doubt,but traces of this distrust linger still,and restrain the Bill from going as far as it should.Hence this not of dissent."

"The right to bear and carry arms is the inviolable and sacred right of every free citizen and thought this has not been included in the list of fundamental rights enumerated in the Indian constitution,the right of self defence accepted and guaranteed by the Indian Penal Code implicitly acknowledges the right to possess arms.Since India is not in a position to run into a race of armaments with big Powers,or their satellites,surrounding our boundaries and having hostile and expansionist designs against us,the only course open for us is to arm our people and military training compulsory for all adult and able bodied citizens........"

"........The present Bill seeks to liberalize the licensing provisions,but the liberalization is very halting,the procedure of securing a license still remains irksome and dilatory,and the license seeker left to the whims and caprice of the bureaucracy......"New Delhi,The 8th August,1959.

The successive govt.s have only made it harder for law abiding citizens to acquire firearms.After independence,dealers were no longer granted licenses to import firearms.There after the import of firearms by individuals through the Post Office was stopped.Then in 1986,the import of firearms by individual citizens was banned altogether.This has pushed up the price of all imported arms to a level where an ordinary citizen can't even think of buying one,even if he can manage a license in the first place.

Private manufacturers are allowed to manufacture only shotguns.They are of a very poor quality.The IOFB has a monopoly on the manufacture of rifled arms.These too are of a very poor quality besides being over priced.IOFB sells a .32 pistol(a copy of the Colt Pocket hammer-less,a 100 year old design with some changes mainly to the slide) for 70,000/- while a similar,in fact better made pistol is sold for about 25,000/- by makers like Bersa(Argentina) and Taurus(Brazil) and a cartridge for it at 40/- when it should not cost more than 8/- including profit.No person will call a .32 pistol or revolver a man stopper BTW.So it would be next to useless when confronting a terrorist.Mr.Bachchan please note.Get something better than the 50 year old .32 Webley you are probably keeping under your pillow.

Just think about this, had some of the guests at the Taj or the Trident or even the security guards there had arms,could not the outcome have been different.

It is nice to talk about giving the police the latest weapons but the cops at CST had arms.The fact of the matter is that the police men chose to run.Arm them with a better rifle and they still do the same,what do you do then.The Head Constable who shot at the terrorists at CST has been rewarded,good.At the same time punish those who ran away.

There is a lot of rubbish about the cops 303 rifles lacking 'range'.A Lee Enfield 303 rifle can hit a target beyond what an AK can reach out to.The Lee Enfield No 1 Mark3 that the cops are generally armed with,is a very old design and not suited to urban policing.It is long,clumsy and you would have a problem with over penetration.However the fact of the matter is that it also has the fastest actions of all the bolt action rifles.Considering the number of policemen there at CST,they could have easily got off more than the couple of shots that they did at the terrorists.Also if you hit something with a 303 round,it stays hit.Some had SLR rifles.That should have ensured a follow up shot at least.

The people around Nariman House threw rocks at the terrorists who stormed it.Now if only a couple of them had rifles?

You can not expect the police to guard each and every citizen.It is time we took the responsibility of guarding ourselves.Be vigilant and be armed.Ask the govt. to either direct the IOFB to produce better firearms at a reasonable price for the Indian public or to allow Indian's to import them.Licensed firearms are used in only a minuscule number firearm related crimes and almost never in terrorist attacks.Terrorists will never ask for an import permit or apply for an arms license.The ban in the import of firearms in 1986 has not made any difference in their ability to acquire whatever they wish to buy.It has only made it harder,if not impossible for the ordinary citizen to defend himself.

[Hunter]

Hi Abhijeet,

All praise to you for that article on page nine of the TOI,but I think we all need to strenghten our cause and push that article to page 1-with some hope that baburaj gets up and takes notice.

Warm Regards

[cottage cheese]

Tried posting this at the NDTV forums but could not,so I will post it here.


The Indian Arms Act of 1887 was designed to disarm the Indian people in the wake of the uprising of 1857.Indian leaders had protested against this Act as being discriminatory.Our British masters included a set of stringent rules as riders and imposed a high import duty on arms while curbing or banning their import in India, with the sole objective of discouraging Indians from acquiring arms.The Indian Arms Act of 1959 is in fact just an amended version of the the Arms Act of 1887.

The Indian National Congress had included the Right to bear arms in the list of Fundamental Rights that it had said would be included in any future Constitution of India.However,once India gained independence,this was conveniently forgotten.

The Indian Arms(Amendment)Bill(No.49 of 1953) laid down the following as it's objectives:-

"The objects of the Bill are:
(a)To exclude knives,spears,bows and arrows from the definition of arms;
(b)to classify firearms and other prohibited weapons so as to ensure-
(i)that dangerous weapons of military patterns are not available to civilians,particularly the anti-social elements;
(ii)that weapons for self defence are available for all citizens under license unless their antecedents or propensities do not disentitle them from the privilege;and
(iii)that fire-arms required for training purposes and ordinary civilian use are made more easily available on permits;
(c)to co-ordinate the rights of citizens with the necessity of maintaining law and order and avoiding fifth column activity in the country;
(d)to recognize the right of the sate to requisition the services of every citizen in national emergencies.The licensee and permit holder for fire-arms,shikaris,target shooters and riflemen in general(in appropriate age-groups) will be of great service to the country in emergencies if the Government can properly mobilize and utilize them."

Now think about whether this has taken place.

This is an extract taken from the Minutes of Dissent of one of the Members of the Joint Committee.I think you will all recognize him-

(Shri Atal Bihari Vajapayee)
"The present bill seeks to repeal the Indian Arms Act enacted by the British rulers eighty years ago with a view to disarm the whole nation.Apart from the considerations of safeguarding the Empire,this policy of depriving the whole people of arms was motivated in the main by a sense of deep mistrust and an attitude of contempt towards the Indian people.I am sorry to note that even after twelve years of Independence,the present government have not been able to shake off completely the legacy of their predecessors.The present Bill as reported by the Joint Committee is an improvement on the original Bill no doubt,but traces of this distrust linger still,and restrain the Bill from going as far as it should.Hence this not of dissent."

"The right to bear and carry arms is the inviolable and sacred right of every free citizen and thought this has not been included in the list of fundamental rights enumerated in the Indian constitution,the right of self defence accepted and guaranteed by the Indian Penal Code implicitly acknowledges the right to possess arms.Since India is not in a position to run into a race of armaments with big Powers,or their satellites,surrounding our boundaries and having hostile and expansionist designs against us,the only course open for us is to arm our people and military training compulsory for all adult and able bodied citizens........"

"........The present Bill seeks to liberalize the licensing provisions,but the liberalization is very halting,the procedure of securing a license still remains irksome and dilatory,and the license seeker left to the whims and caprice of the bureaucracy......"New Delhi,The 8th August,1959.

The successive govt.s have only made it harder for law abiding citizens to acquire firearms.After independence,dealers were no longer granted licenses to import firearms.There after the import of firearms by individuals through the Post Office was stopped.Then in 1986,the import of firearms by individual citizens was banned altogether.This has pushed up the price of all imported arms to a level where an ordinary citizen can't even think of buying one,even if he can manage a license in the first place.

Private manufacturers are allowed to manufacture only shotguns.They are of a very poor quality.The IOFB has a monopoly on the manufacture of rifled arms.These too are of a very poor quality besides being over priced.IOFB sells a .32 pistol(a copy of the Colt Pocket hammer-less,a 100 year old design with some changes mainly to the slide) for 70,000/- while a similar,in fact better made pistol is sold for about 25,000/- by makers like Bersa(Argentina) and Taurus(Brazil) and a cartridge for it at 40/- when it should not cost more than 8/- including profit.No person will call a .32 pistol or revolver a man stopper BTW.So it would be next to useless when confronting a terrorist.Mr.Bachchan please note.Get something better than the 50 year old .32 Webley you are probably keeping under your pillow.

Just think about this, had some of the guests at the Taj or the Trident or even the security guards there had arms,could not the outcome have been different.

It is nice to talk about giving the police the latest weapons but the cops at CST had arms.But the fact of the matter is that the police men chose to runs.Arm them with a better rifle and they still do the same,what do you do then.The Head Constable who shot at the terrorists at CST has been rewarded,good.At the same time punish those who ran away.

There is a lot of rubbish about the cops 303 rifles lacking 'range'.A Lee Enfield 303 rifle can hit a target beyond what an AK can reach out to.The Lee Enfield No 1 Mark3 that the cops are generally armed with,is a very old design and not suited to urban policing.It is long,clumsy and you would have a problem with over penetration.However the fact of the matter is that it also has the fastest actions of all the bolt action rifles.Considering the number of policemen there at CST,they could have easily got off more than the couple of shots that they did at the terrorists.Also if you hit something with a 303 round,it stays hit.Some had SLR rifles.That should have ensured a follow up shot at least.

The people around Nariman House threw rocks at the terrorists who stormed it.Now if only a couple of them had rifles?

You can not expect the police to guard each and every citizen.It is time we took the responsibility of guarding ourselves.Be vigilant and be armed.Ask the govt. to either direct the IOFB to produce better firearms at a reasonable price for the Indian public or to allow Indian's to import them.Licensed firearms are used in only a minuscule number firearm related crimes and almost never in terrorist attacks.Terrorists will never ask for an import permit or apply for an arms license.The ban in the import of firearms in 1986 has not made any difference in their ability to acquire whatever they wish to buy.It has only made it harder,if not impossible for the ordinary citizen to defend himself.

Well thought out and written penpusher - hopefully this writeup will be noticed by those outside our fraternity. That is what is needed.

regards,
cc

[TenX]

This from today's Times of India (Mumbai Edition) - http://tinyurl.com/5capro
...

.. wonder where my post went
Its great to see IFG and the discussion gaining momentum in the news :0
... only hope they had also mentioned the URL if IFG ...

[mundaire]

Hi Abhijeet,

All praise to you for that article on page nine of the TOI,but I think we all need to strenghten our cause and push that article to page 1-with some hope that baburaj gets up and takes notice.

Warm Regards

The initiative for doing this need not be limited to only a few here. Every member can do his/ her own bit, what's holding the rest of you back?

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Olly]

penpusher,
Very nice and thought provoking article. You could possibly send it to TOI / HT for publication in their Letters to the Editor column.

[kanwar76]

penpusher Bai,

I am going to post this article in one RKBA community in Orkut (With Due credits to you)

I hope you don't have any problem

-Inder

[snIPer]

Guys get a load of this -
there were a total of 17 terrorists and 7 are missing as of now.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 795021.cms

seven went back??????


MUMBAI: A police inventory of articles recovered from Kuber, the trawler hijacked by terrorists to sail from Porbandher to Mumbai, lists 16
blankets and 15 jackets. Police also found 15 caps, two air pumps, all pointers to the presence of more than 10 terrorists on board.

An officer from Yellow Gate police station, which has maintained a record of articles recovered from the boat, said the crime branch has refused to buy the theory that more than 10 terrorists landed in Mumbai on November 26.

"We managed to convince our immediate superiors, but the crime branch did not buy the argument," the officer said. The police station has handed over details gathered to the crime branch, which is investigating the terror attack. Ajmal Kasav, the lone surviving terrorist, is with the crime branch.

Joint police commissioner of the crime branch Rakesh Maria insists there were only 10 terrorists. Only two days ago, Mumbai police commissioner Hasan Gafoor held a press conference to announce that there were only 10 terrorists and that the city was safe. However, the discovery of a bomb at CST on Thursday has cast a shadow of doubt over his claim.

The Yellow Gate police had also recovered two raft-engine covers from Kuber, which indicates that the terrorists shifted to two inflated rubber dinghy boats from the trawler. "One of the boats has been traced. We do not know about the other," a police officer said. The police are searching the coast for the second dinghy.

Ajmal Kasav has also said there were 17 terrorists when motor vessel Al-Husaini set sail from Pakistan. "According to him, 10 shifted to Kuber. The rest returned with the four crew members of Kuber on Al Husaini.

These crew members were later killed," a crime branch official said. The local police believe that eight terrorists came by the dinghy which has been found while two others might have arrived earlier or by another route. "The dinghy can accommodate a maximum of eight persons. We have also recovered eight life jackets from the dinghy boat which supports our theory," the officer from Yellow Gate police station said.

A fisherman from Colaba said in his police statement that he saw eight terrorists in the dinghy of which six got off at the shore at Badhwar Park. The remaining two went off with the dinghy.

According to the police, they got off the rocks near Hotel Oberoi-Trident at Nariman Point, just a kilometre away from Badhwar Park. Two persons were involved in the attack on Hotel Trident.

[The Doc]

Tried posting this at the NDTV forums but could not,so I will post it here.


The Indian Arms Act of 1887 was designed to disarm the Indian people in the wake of the uprising of 1857.Indian leaders had protested against this Act as being discriminatory.Our British masters included a set of stringent rules as riders and imposed a high import duty on arms while curbing or banning their import in India, with the sole objective of discouraging Indians from acquiring arms.The Indian Arms Act of 1959 is in fact just an amended version of the the Arms Act of 1887.

The Indian National Congress had included the Right to bear arms in the list of Fundamental Rights that it had said would be included in any future Constitution of India.However,once India gained independence,this was conveniently forgotten.

The Indian Arms(Amendment)Bill(No.49 of 1953) laid down the following as it's objectives:-

"The objects of the Bill are:
(a)To exclude knives,spears,bows and arrows from the definition of arms;
(b)to classify firearms and other prohibited weapons so as to ensure-
(i)that dangerous weapons of military patterns are not available to civilians,particularly the anti-social elements;
(ii)that weapons for self defence are available for all citizens under license unless their antecedents or propensities do not disentitle them from the privilege;and
(iii)that fire-arms required for training purposes and ordinary civilian use are made more easily available on permits;
(c)to co-ordinate the rights of citizens with the necessity of maintaining law and order and avoiding fifth column activity in the country;
(d)to recognize the right of the sate to requisition the services of every citizen in national emergencies.The licensee and permit holder for fire-arms,shikaris,target shooters and riflemen in general(in appropriate age-groups) will be of great service to the country in emergencies if the Government can properly mobilize and utilize them."

Now think about whether this has taken place.

This is an extract taken from the Minutes of Dissent of one of the Members of the Joint Committee.I think you will all recognize him-

(Shri Atal Bihari Vajapayee)
"The present bill seeks to repeal the Indian Arms Act enacted by the British rulers eighty years ago with a view to disarm the whole nation.Apart from the considerations of safeguarding the Empire,this policy of depriving the whole people of arms was motivated in the main by a sense of deep mistrust and an attitude of contempt towards the Indian people.I am sorry to note that even after twelve years of Independence,the present government have not been able to shake off completely the legacy of their predecessors.The present Bill as reported by the Joint Committee is an improvement on the original Bill no doubt,but traces of this distrust linger still,and restrain the Bill from going as far as it should.Hence this not of dissent."

"The right to bear and carry arms is the inviolable and sacred right of every free citizen and thought this has not been included in the list of fundamental rights enumerated in the Indian constitution,the right of self defence accepted and guaranteed by the Indian Penal Code implicitly acknowledges the right to possess arms.Since India is not in a position to run into a race of armaments with big Powers,or their satellites,surrounding our boundaries and having hostile and expansionist designs against us,the only course open for us is to arm our people and military training compulsory for all adult and able bodied citizens........"

"........The present Bill seeks to liberalize the licensing provisions,but the liberalization is very halting,the procedure of securing a license still remains irksome and dilatory,and the license seeker left to the whims and caprice of the bureaucracy......"New Delhi,The 8th August,1959.

The successive govt.s have only made it harder for law abiding citizens to acquire firearms.After independence,dealers were no longer granted licenses to import firearms.There after the import of firearms by individuals through the Post Office was stopped.Then in 1986,the import of firearms by individual citizens was banned altogether.This has pushed up the price of all imported arms to a level where an ordinary citizen can't even think of buying one,even if he can manage a license in the first place.

Private manufacturers are allowed to manufacture only shotguns.They are of a very poor quality.The IOFB has a monopoly on the manufacture of rifled arms.These too are of a very poor quality besides being over priced.IOFB sells a .32 pistol(a copy of the Colt Pocket hammer-less,a 100 year old design with some changes mainly to the slide) for 70,000/- while a similar,in fact better made pistol is sold for about 25,000/- by makers like Bersa(Argentina) and Taurus(Brazil) and a cartridge for it at 40/- when it should not cost more than 8/- including profit.No person will call a .32 pistol or revolver a man stopper BTW.So it would be next to useless when confronting a terrorist.Mr.Bachchan please note.Get something better than the 50 year old .32 Webley you are probably keeping under your pillow.

Just think about this, had some of the guests at the Taj or the Trident or even the security guards there had arms,could not the outcome have been different.

It is nice to talk about giving the police the latest weapons but the cops at CST had arms.But the fact of the matter is that the police men chose to runs.Arm them with a better rifle and they still do the same,what do you do then.The Head Constable who shot at the terrorists at CST has been rewarded,good.At the same time punish those who ran away.

There is a lot of rubbish about the cops 303 rifles lacking 'range'.A Lee Enfield 303 rifle can hit a target beyond what an AK can reach out to.The Lee Enfield No 1 Mark3 that the cops are generally armed with,is a very old design and not suited to urban policing.It is long,clumsy and you would have a problem with over penetration.However the fact of the matter is that it also has the fastest actions of all the bolt action rifles.Considering the number of policemen there at CST,they could have easily got off more than the couple of shots that they did at the terrorists.Also if you hit something with a 303 round,it stays hit.Some had SLR rifles.That should have ensured a follow up shot at least.

The people around Nariman House threw rocks at the terrorists who stormed it.Now if only a couple of them had rifles?

You can not expect the police to guard each and every citizen.It is time we took the responsibility of guarding ourselves.Be vigilant and be armed.Ask the govt. to either direct the IOFB to produce better firearms at a reasonable price for the Indian public or to allow Indian's to import them.Licensed firearms are used in only a minuscule number firearm related crimes and almost never in terrorist attacks.Terrorists will never ask for an import permit or apply for an arms license.The ban in the import of firearms in 1986 has not made any difference in their ability to acquire whatever they wish to buy.It has only made it harder,if not impossible for the ordinary citizen to defend himself.

Thank you penpusher , you put it together very well.

best,

RP.

[penpusher]

penpusher Bai,

I am going to post this article in one RKBA community in Orkut (With Due credits to you)

I hope you don't have any problem

-Inder

Go ahead.

[snIPer]

penpusher Good writeup