The Indian Army’s .303 story

[xl_target]

There was also a modern lee Enfield know ishapore 7.62 nato lee Enfield. Which probably used by the Indian army in 70s

Mrinmoy,
Thanks for your contribution. The rifles you mention were called the RFI(Rifle Factory, Ishapore) 2A and 2A1.
Read through this post from the beginning and you will find that they have been discussed here.

That rifle is meant to fire rubber bullets.

Winnie,
Could you elaborate please.
Is this the normal method for firing rubber bullets used by Indian police?
What other firearms are used for rubber bullets?
Are the rubber bullets used in this version (shown in the photo) made indigineously?
Thanks.

[timmy]

That rifle is meant to fire rubber bullets.

Winnie,
Could you elaborate please.
Is this the normal method for firing rubber bullets used by Indian police?
What other firearms are used for rubber bullets?
Are the rubber bullets used in this version (shown in the photo) made indigineously?
Thanks.[/quote]

I'll second these motions. I'd also like to know the answers to XL's questions.

It would also be nice to see what the rubber bullet cartridge looks like.

Thanks!

[xl_target]

My own experiences with the SMLE were limited to NCC training with DP rifles at the Bishop Cotton Boys High School, Bangalore (in the early 1970's). We were also taken to a range in Bangalore and allowed to fire the .22 LR training riles. TC, I clearly remember that the magazines were still attached as the fired cartridge casings would drop into the gutted magazine, on extraction.

Hoevever, in 1984 when I was in college enrolled in the Univ. of Wisconsin's system, one of the guys on my floor invited me home with him. While there he took me to see a gunsmith in his rural Wisconsin hometown. When the gunsmith heard that I was from India, he pulled out a No. 1 Mk 4. rifle to show me.
I went home with that rifle after paying him $75. The rifle was made by Savage.
What is an American company doing making a British rifle, you ask?
Apparently, several American companies made rifles for the British Government just prior to and during WW2. I'm not sure if this was a part of the US Lend-Lease program or if it was a contract let by the Brits. Either way, I was the proud possessor of that rifle for several years till it was stolen.
.303 ammo was generally available, whether it was commercial hunting ammo made by US ammo makers or whether it was surplus ball from several commonwealth countries. I remember that it was not particularly accurate (about 4 MOA) but about par for a rack grade military rifle.

[xl_target]

I found this article that would seem to fit into this thread:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/punjab/ch ... 53879.aspx

Himachal Police to modify 303 rifles to fire rubber bullets
Gaurav Bisht Shimla , August 19, 2014

Finding it difficult to get rid of 303 rifles, the Himachal Police have now decided to modify the brutally-effective firearms that have remained synonym with the state police for more than a century.

Though old guns are the being replaced with modern weaponry, police still have more than 5,000, 303 rifles in its armory. These rifles, known for their aim and sturdiness, will be the modified to fire rubber bullets to disperse crowds at the time of rioting.
“We have drawn up a proposal to modify 303 rifles to fire rubber bullets,” director general of police (DGP) Sanjay Kumar told Hindustan Times.

“We thought instead of dumping these guns, these may be modified for some other purpose,” said Kumar while adding that the modified 303 rifles will be provided to the state police's riot control teams.
Police personnel feel that 303 rifles, which are not self-loading arms, weigh heavy, look monstrous and they hinder movement during critical manoeuvres.

Meanwhile, there is also a proposal to provide 303 rifles for training to special police officers (SPOs) who are deployed in villages along the Chamba border with Jammu and Kashmir.

The 303 Enfield rifles are now being replaced by the indigenously-manufactured INSAS rifles that are much lighter than these first World War-era guns. INSAS rifles were introduced in the army in 1994 but these too are being gradually phased out to be replaced with better assault rifles being manufactured in England and Israel.

The state police have also proposed to purchase modern guns to equip the cops. “More guns of the AK series will be purchased by the police under its modernisation programme,” said the DGP.

He said that lately Israeli MP guns have also been added to the police armory. The Israeli made MP5 guns are considered to be effective for close combat. Cops on the VVIP duty are being equipped with MP5 guns. There is a proposal to purchase more MP 5 guns which are fitted with night vision devices.
The state police had started its modernisation drive in 2002 but it has been progressing on snail's pace, owing to the paucity of funds for purchasing new weaponry.

“The state has been constantly urging the union ministry of home affairs to be more liberal with its funding so that police modernisation could be given impetus,” said additional director general of police (armed police and training) AP Siddiqui.

link

[xl_target]

Another image of the same firearm. Also J&K police.

[timmy]

Hrrumph! Modify them to fire rubber bullets? It would be much better to sell them to an import-export arms dealer so that I could buy one over here!

I would love to have a 303 Ishapore!

[essdee1972]

It would be much better to sell them to an import-export arms dealer so that I could buy one over here!

Or let the starved millions of India (starved for guns, that is!) buy some.......

Israeli-made MP5s? I though they were German.... can someone correct me?

[TwoRivers]

It

Israeli-made MP5s? I though they were German.... can someone correct me?

Not unless H&K licensed Israeli production of the MP5, which is unlikely.

[TC]

After going through the posts I called up a couple of officers in Bengal and Kolkata police who are knowledgeable as far as firearms and the police inventory are concerned. The responses was not quite encouraging for us here but let me share.

1) Consignments of rubber bullets have landed in the state and they are in 7.62 and 12 gauge !

2) These can be fired from standard 7.62 mm SLRs (the cops in Bengal still use some of them though most have been replaced by INSAS and AK)
No modification to the SLRs are required. None of them could however say how the authorities propose to use the 12 gauge rubber bullets without purchasing new shotguns.
Since these rubber bullets are being manufactured locally as far as I know, it is possible that some old 303 rifles in the J&K police armory may have been modified (I guess the barrels were replaced by 7.62 mm barrels that IOF Ishapore has in plenty) to fire the rubber bullets.
But that still doesn't answer two questions: Why use such a short barrel and more importantly, what is that suppressor like attachment ?

Quiet frustrated, I was going through file photos of riots in the Valley but could not spot another short 303 rifle. However I stumbled into this on the net: innovation at its best Thought this may bring some relief in the middle of a serious discussion.

from here : http://kashmirglobal.com/wp-content/upl ... inagar.jpg



The search for facts continues

TC

[Hammerhead]

[ Image ]

The search for facts continues

TC

Hey TC sir, on a different note. What the heck is that thing called in English terms. It's not slingshot, not a catapult may be
trebuchet but ntives here in Canada have different version of this. They have the sling attached to one end of a wooden stick.
Just asking ,

[TC]

Hi,
I think its called a slingshot. All illustrations of David killing the Goliath shows this as the weapon and the scripts say its a slingshot.
Others may throw more light.
This was used even by farmers in Punjab in old days, if I correctly remember a scene from Heer Ranjha made in the 60s.
TC

[Rajat]

Hi,
I think its called a slingshot. All illustrations of David killing the Goliath shows this as the weapon and the scripts say its a slingshot.

Precisely. I was about to give the same example. It IS called a slingshot.

[winnie_the_pooh]

A blank cartridge in the chamber...plastic pellet in the contraption affixed to the muzzle=ooh....ahhhhh ...ouch

[xl_target]

A blank cartridge in the chamber...plastic pellet in the contraption affixed to the muzzle=ooh....ahhhhh ...ouch

Thanks Winnie,
So it is not a suppressor but a device to hold the rubber projectile?
I'm surprised that they would use a blank cartridge and a separate projectile.
Having to load a blank and a projectile in the middle of a riot would be challenging.

[xl_target]

A couple of years ago, I posted a story about the Canadian Rangers retiring their Lee Enfields.

Apparently, they are having a hard time doing so.

Lee-Enfield rifle being phased out, being replaced by Colt Canada
Posted October 22, 2014 in Rifles by Steve Johnson

- See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014 ... 2hbwh.dpuf

We first blogged about Canada replacing the Lee-Enfield rifle, used by the Rangers, a reserve unit that patrols the far north, back in 2011. It seems the Canadian Army is still talking about replacing the aging rifles but not doing a whole lot of actual replacing. Back in 2011 the Army said they would be replaced with a rifle chambered in 7.62x51mm NATO. Now they are talking to Colt Canada, which makes me think they are going to issue them with AR-15 rifles chambered in 5.56mm.

Metro News reports …

“The Rangers were not issued this weapon to fight an enemy, they were given the rifle because they are operating in one of the harshest environments in the world,” says Capt. Mark Rittwage, officer commander of the 3rd Canadian Patrol Group, Northern Ontario.

“And . . . the predators that are there, polar bears, wolves, even bull moose during rutting season, can cause a danger to our Rangers,” Rittwage says.

The Lee-Enfield is still being used by many military and police forces around the globe.

But its Ranger tenure may be coming to an end with National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces having issued a request for proposal to gun maker Colt Canada for a replacement.

Lee-Enfields are issued to Rangers primarily for self-defence, he stresses. The Rangers are trained to kill only if clearly threatened.

Each Ranger is issued with a Lee Enfield No. 4 rifle and has a yearly allowance of 200 .303 rounds of ammunition.

- See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014 ... 2hbwh.dpuf