Heights of ignorance :P

[Virendra S Rathore]

I'm astounded by the ignorance the young Indians have about guns. I mean c'mon its not that difficult to have basic awareness without actual fire-arms at disposal .. don't we just damn watch the movies ??
I had uploaded few shooting pics of mine (IHP air rifle) at Orkut once.
Guess what expert comment I received on one of em ..
"Banduk ko kandhe k upar rakha jata hai", meaning - Gun is to be kept on top of the shoulder.
Really !!! .. was I using a rocket launcher man !!!
Felt like dooms day. Initially I got pissed, later I laughed a lot on this.
Anyways, I didn't rant back, sounds arrogant .. jus explained that the recoil mandates us to support the butt of the rifle with the front of shoulder and not on top of it.
But now I realize the bigger picture is not very different from this in our country .. not an isolated incident.
I restrained posting further pics after that.

Its a matter of one's life, can't put blind faith in any government .. however better it may be. Its the preparedness of the people that matters.
Such ignorance runs deeper than guns actually. Even if they somehow lay hands on a gun in a real life scenario, cant shoot a dime with it.
How are we going to face the next 26/11 .. thas a sample above for you.

God, please tell me when will this change ..

[brihacharan]

> Its a matter of one's life, can't put blind faith in any government .. however better it may be. Its the preparedness of the people that matters. Such ignorance runs deeper than guns actually. Even if they somehow lay hands on a gun in a real life scenario, cant shoot a dime with it.
> How are we going to face the next 26/11 .. thas a sample above for you.
> God, please tell me when will this change ..

Hi Virender,
> Yes - Over 200 yrs of subjugation & denial and meaningless Gun Laws has brought us to this state of affairs.
> Yet there's hope: Like the US & Israel, our Govt. must make cumpulsory 'Drafting' for all 18 yr olds - 2 years in any branch of armed forces. In the US dodging 'Draft' is punishable by law!!!
> If this hopefully happens, then RKBA will be a natural progression. Not only that, the respect for a gun will develop and its ownership will empower a sense of 'pride of possession'.
> Unfortunately the 'Raj Syndrome' & 'Babugiri' is taking its toll. Its not education but enlightenment that will make us visionaries.
> Schools & colleges must include training in arms - NCC is an option today - not a mandate for students. It must be made compulsory.
> In the final analysis its Apathy, else why would our police force still use WW 1 model Enfield .303 with date expired ammo. Someone called these weapons 'Wait a Minute Guns' - meaning you pull the trigger and wait a minute for it to fire!
Cheers
Brihacharan

[Virendra S Rathore]

> our Govt. must make cumpulsory 'Drafting' for all 18 yr olds - 2 years in any branch of armed forces. In the US dodging 'Draft' is punishable by law!!!
> If this hopefully happens, then RKBA will be a natural progression. Not only that, the respect for a gun will develop and its ownership will empower a sense of 'pride of possession'.
Cheers
Brihacharan

Immediately after 26/11, Mukesh Ambani gave the same suggestions to a central govt. cabinet minister .. I guess it was the home minister , not sure. But the govt doesnt want to even take that tiny step.
May be they need some eye opening jolt from IFG & NAGRI.
We have a lot of similarities with Israel in terms of the way we're disposed in the world today.
We can learn a lot from Israel's methods like 1-2 yrs mandatory military training for every teen.
Otherwise we'll keep saying that "banduk ko kandhe k upar rakha jata hai"

[Vikram]

You are right guys.

Brihacharan, BTW, there is no conscription in USA at the moment. In India, we do not need a conscription simply because of the logistics involved. The demand and supply are highly disproportionate-just too many people want to get into the army and army does not need so many soldiers. A more awareness/education approach is perhaps more apt.Do you agree?Thanks.

Best-
Vikram

[m24]

I agree with Vikram. Currently the state of affairs in our country w.r.t guns is because of non-dissemination of info. Once, it is taught proper, you may find yourself getting better responses.

Regards

[sawbones]

Yup i do my air pistol dry practice on my front verandah and poeple passing by will say
"Jab bhi dactar ghar ke bahar niculta hai
uske haath mein bada mouser reheta hai

I use a baikal 46m mauser my foot


sawbones

[cottage cheese]

Yup i do my air pistol dry practice on my front verandah and poeple passing by will say
"Jab bhi dactar ghar ke bahar niculta hai
uske haath mein bada mouser reheta hai

I use a baikal 46m mauser my foot


sawbones

..and I can imagine some of the more 'knowledgable' among them going... "oh! it is sophisticated 9km Russia made mouser pistal gun"

[gverma]

Well one thing is that movies show that really cool way to shoot which is not the right way. Specifically the wild west movies

[timmy]

Vikram is right -- there has been no conscription in the USA for quite some time. The armed services have become an "all volunteer" force, and in both the first and second Iraq wars, as well as this present Afghanistan thing, there has been a lot of uproar over the reserves being called up -- many of these folks signed up to the reserves for a little extra money and some benefits, never expecting to be called up to fight in foreign theaters. The news has been full of stories of single moms having nowhere to turn for their kids' care.

Gun ignorance is quite rampant in the USA, as a matter of fact. "Wild West" movies are hardly the worst of it. Six shooters that can be fired 20 to 30 times without reloading are a minor thing compared to the stupidity portrayed in the new "gang" and organized crime types of movies, where the shooter holds a handgun sideways while firing (and hits his target, of course). Just like in Westerns, the hero still hides behind a balsa wood table, which stops all handgun, rifle, and shotgun traffic coming his way.

Most people here have no more training in weapons than folks anywhere else -- the movies and TV are their training here, just like what you mention in India. Of course, these modes of entertainment come from an entertainment industry that is solidly anti-gun and which very actively campaigns for abolishment of RKBA, all the time hypocritically making their millions by promoting an evil and fictional gun culture. (I often wonder what sort of movies they would make, if the world was turned into the gunless paradise they promote politically.)

No sportsmanship is taught, and this same industry uses every opportunity to belittle and sneer at hunting and other shooting sports, where safe, legal, and responsible gun ownership is promoted (as opposed to the lawless banditry constantly portrayed in their violent, bloody "entertainment"). Their comments are replete with ignorance of what they claim to know, yet their babble goes largely unchallenged by the public, which is too busy to educate itself on anything (as the state of our politics shows).

So, while in India, the problem is that people don't know, here in the USA, it is largely that people can know, but that they are too lazy to make the effort. In my mind, that's an even worse state. Politicians are then quick to swoop in and "solve" problems by curtailing the freedoms of gun owners, and the public is satisfied to accept this, since (like fighting wars with a volunteer army) they are quite happy to pay a price when it's coming from someone else's pocket.

If there is hopefulness in my reply to this post, it is that these sorts of public attitudes (which, after all, form the basis of a politician's appeal -- in a democracy, the blaming of politicians, lawyers, etc gets old and we must face the fact that we, the public have to shoulder the blame) take a long time to change. No bolt of lightning is going to fall from the sky and present us with lush, sunlit green fields of freedom and prosperity. Rather, it will be a long hard slog for us all to reach that point where all citizens enjoy the legal right to keep and bear arms.

[m24]

Your post Tim, is an eye opener. I was highly under the impression that Americans, per se, were pretty knowledgeable about guns with the long history of handling them and having them at homes. What pains me is the fact that people there have opportunity and facilities to learn, yet they are not using them . Here, in Delhi, If I were to buy a .22lr, I don't have a legal and authorized space in the vicinity of 150-200 kms., where I can go and practice. So where do I shoot??

Regards

[shooter]

I agree with tim.
US,UK,France,OZ,NZ, Poland, Czech, Italy, SA and Germany etc etc. Ive had a good fortune to meet and interact people from the world over.

Just because shooting is more popular in various countries doesnt mean everybody there knows about shooting and guns.

The difference between rifle and shotgun is just as puzzling to many people here in the west as in India.
A lot of people dont know how to hold a gun here. Many think gunowners are nuts.

While we are at it I would also like to point out that:

Most people in china dont know kung fu,
majority of koreans dont know the basics of archery
Most University graduates in the UK dont know what coxless pairs is.
Majority londoners think Purdeys is bottled drink, boss is a designer label and holland is a country.

I met a Mauritian and when I told him I was from India, he started asking me about Shah Rukh, Salman and Sanjay dutt. I mean not just about their movies, careers but also about private stuff, personal lives etc. When I told him I didnt know the answers he was surprised that being from India, I knew only as much as he and people in his country knew. His logic was since I was from their counrty, I should know more details about them than the other people like Mauririans, Pakistanis, etc etc.

[Virendra S Rathore]

I know the ones who can apply it aren't listening but I have a suggestion.
A comprehensive and thorough procedure of training could be set in for all applicants prior to approval of their fire-arm license applications.
This can include everything - from Gun technicalities to self defense tips. Basically you have to prove that you're technically, physically and mentally fit to own and use a gun. This would eradicate a lot problems.
The present methods of approval only focus on validating the need of gun, while every one has the right to equip him/herself; far more important is that first they know what they're holding, how to use it, when to use it - before they get to own it under the law of the land.
That is the heart of the problem. naive misuse of guns, accidents with guns etc create the impression which makes it even more difficult to realize the dream of reaching RKBA.
When those small no. of licenses are given like peanuts to people among whom many don't have it all set right (technique, attitude, mindset) - it spells doom to RKBA.

I strongly believe IFG n NAGRI can again help in this cause. Just like any organization gains ground by creating awareness in people about its area of operation, its cause.
I don't know, but its crude idea .. like we can give them an insight of what really guns are, current laws, why guns are required in a civil society etc.
Ignorance is because they never got to know but I think people would take immense interest once someone stands up to deliver such awareness n explains why it is so important to be aware of these things in the world we live in today.

I've known companies organizing martial arts events/workshop sorta things for their employees. That is just an example.
We can do it at any platform to begin with, it'll help everyone ... educate them n give us momentum, visibility. All in mind for now .. I wish we could work it out one day



n yeah I've seen in hollywood movies, ppl shown shooting a handgun with a bent elbow .. imagine what would happen if they really had a shot like that with a genuine gun ... thrown back off a few feet at least .. with a crushed arm .. hehe

[MoA]

Virendra some good points in your post. Lobbying does bring results which is why its a multi billion dollar industry.

As for shooting with a bent elbow, nothing wrong with it. I never have my elbows locked unless am shooting in competition one handed. That is with a handgun. With a rifle, I cant figure out how not to shoot without bent elbows.

[Virendra S Rathore]

Yes it is a precaution for handguns only.
Though I've no practical experience of firing handguns but from what I've seen and read, I believe it is difficult for a bent arm to transfer the recoil effect to the shoulder as compared to for a straight arm.
However, in case of a rifle - the butt does the job pretty well.

[timmy]

m24, that is also a problem in much of the USA as well: Where to shoot? Here in Texas, of all places, there are not a lot of places to shoot for many folks. For instance, if one wants to shoot a handgun or .22 where I live, there is a local indoor range -- which isn't all that cheap for someone on a limited budget.

Then, there was another range north of me. That one was closed down as the rural community expanded into a suburban one and the good, solid suburbanites sought a country place to live, a place to which they could bring their sophisticated and cultured ways. Of course, the "noise" and "danger" from the range, which had been around forever, now constituted a public nuisance and danger, and after a long legal battle, was shut down by the forces of culture and progress.

I have never been keen on city ranges, myself, being a country person. So I joined a rural shooting club about 60 miles from my home. At one point, I was going there 2 to 3 times a week. There was seldom anyone at the range, which is what I like. Then the owner sold the property and that was that.

Now in my home of New Mexico, and indeed throughout the West, where I've spent most of my time, there are many places to shoot because there is a lot of public land. Often, one drove out into an uninhabited place and set up to shoot. Many afternoons when my boys were still at home, we'd get a big bag of pop cans and head out to the hills and shoot them up, collect them, and come back home.

The expense of ammunition is a problem all over, and for the beginning shooter, as in any sport, there are a lot of "start up costs." This, combined with a lack of shooting space, makes things difficult for many beginners.

Another issue here in the USA is that we are becoming a vicarious society: We don't play football and baseball, we watch it. In fact, some of the most popular TV shows have been centered on being in a Bar. So, rather than going to the bar and drinking yourself, you can sit on your couch at home and watch others do it. Similarly, we can watch our soldiers fighting on TV and "WE" are fighting in Afghanistan. Or, we can take part in that awful gun battle by watching it on TV or playing it on a video game. This is all more preferable to many people, as opposed to actually heading out and going to a range. A popular past time is "paintball," where one has specialized air guns that shoot balls of paint. Contestants run about the hills and shoot each other. Frankly, I have serious reservations about this, even tho many of my younger friends enjoy it. Personally, I don't feel good about "sports" that shoot others. I think it tends to desensitize people to real killing. But then again, if paintball follows most American trends, soon it will become a professional sport and few will actually play it: they will watch it in big stadiums or watch it on TV.

Myself, I would rather have a peaceful afternoon out on the range.

I don't know why this is, but it seems to be more and more this way.