Mannlicher-Scheoner M1905

[Katana]

Anyone have any idea what rounds are chambered in the Mannlicher-Schoener M1905? I suspect its the 9x56, but am not sure. Anyone with this rifle could elaborate or give a history?

[Vikram]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/m-s_carbine.htm

[Amit357]

Hi Katana i think its 9.3 X 62,one of my friends dad had this Rifle,he still has some ammo lying around ,dont think it will work but will check the Cal and mail you.he had picked this ammo way back in 1990 from Delhi.

[winnie_the_pooh]

If it is 9mm it could be 9mm MS.If it is,it is bad news because ammo is next to impossible to get.Then you basically have a danda.

You can form cases from 30-06 brass but that is another story altogether.

[TwoRivers]

The , M1905 Mannlicher-Schoenauer is chambered for the 9x56 M-S cartridge. Steyr designated its M-S rifles in a caliber/year fashion. M1903=6.5x54 M-S; M1905=9x56 M-S; M1908=8x56 M-S; M1910=9.5x57 M-S. Not until after WWI was a slightly longer action chambered for Mauser cartridges, plus .30-06.
A 9x56 M-S will usually chamber 9x57 Mauser cartridges manufactured by Eley-Kynoch as well, and fire them safely. The 9x57, while also obsolete, was produced a while longer. It was also more widely distributed; and thus may be easier to find. Cheers.

[Katana]

Amit, Winnie & Two Rivers,
Actually I was sitting with a dealer when he showed me this rifle that he had picked up from a govt. auction for a really ridiculous figure. Well, he did pick it up but had no clue of the calibre! So we go talking and I said it could be either an 8mm or 9mm and then i remembered that the 1903 model was 6.5(my grandfather had some of these rifles) and that the 1905 was 9mm.

So thanks to you guys, I seem to be right!

@Amit, should you wish to dispose your ammo I could give you the dealers contacts; presuming that you have it still lying around!

Thanks guys!
Katana

[Amit357]

Hi katana thanks for your offer,am very closely related to the Arms Trade,have a dealer license,{friend is a Arms/ Ammo wholesaler,i was gonna give up the licence,he need it so he is running it} no one gonna pay any money for these ctgs,the orignal MS Rifle has been converted to a caliber whose ctgs are very easily availble,dont wanna get into the legalities and moralities/modalities of the stuff.I guess eveyone has a right to do what they think is right.Thanks for your offer,if you need any stuff mail me will try and arrange it at a good price.

[winnie_the_pooh]

Converting a MS rifle to another calibre is not that easy mainly because of the magazine.That said I have seen many rifles ruined by an attempt by dealers to make a fast buck trying to convert it to a calibre for which ammo is available.

[Katana]

Thanks Amit,

Appreciate your offer. The rifle in question is for sale with a dealer. I'll ask him if he wants the ammo. If he is interested I'll Pm his contacts to you.

Regards,

Katana

[speedy]

Hi Katana, M1905 is a 9mm [9x56] rifle. don't even try firing a 9x57 mauser cartridge in it. A little knowledge is a very danerous thing especially when it comes to fire arms. M1905 is an absolute beauty and cartridiges can be inimported from Austria.

[marksman]

Dear Katana,
A very close friend is in an urgent need to buy a rifle to save his additional rifle license. Can this rifle be bought? If yes then at what price? Ammo is not a priority l as this is all about saving the license. Please inform at your earliest. The license is Mumbai issued for Indian Union.
Marksman

[carbine]

My grandfather in early 80 have MS 1910 rifle in 9.5x57 calibre .still he have more than 100 kynoch ammo .

[bhupi]

More than 100 in noida (UP) . You need to be under scanner, limit is of 30 max. if i am not wrong.

[TwoRivers]

Hi Katana, M1905 is a 9mm [9x56] rifle. don't even try firing a 9x57 mauser cartridge in it. A little knowledge is a very danerous thing especially when it comes to fire arms. M1905 is an absolute beauty and cartridiges can be inimported from Austria.

Hi Speedy; I could not agree with you more. A little knowledge can indeed be dangerous. I suppose you are truly familiar with the specifications of the two cartridges, have measured actual Kynoch specimens, have looked at them under an optical comparator, and have overlaid CAD drawings of cartridges and chambers? If you have not, please let me know what your statement is based on? "All generalizations are wrong."

Up until some seven years ago, I would have cautioned against using the Mauser cartridge in an M1905 M-S. "Just won't fit." Mainly because of the slightly larger diameter of the Mauser round, and case length. That's when a co-worker showed up with his M-1905 Carbine, and Kynoch 9x57 Mauser cartridges, which he, and his father before him, had been shooting in the rifle for years. Since he was our CAD technician, I had him run drawings on the two rounds and respective chambers, minimum chamber and maximum cartridge. The results astonished me. The headspace fit was perfect. As long as the M-S chamber is large enough at the rear to accept the Mauser cartridge without undue resistance when closing the bolt, there is no reason not to use Mauser cartridges.
Cartridges, especially Kynoch, are usually quite a bit smaller than allowable maximum; while chambers are always larger than allowable minimum. The dimensional differences between these two 9mm rounds are very small to begin with. Since the 9x56 M-S is not simply a necked-up 8x56 M-N round, as one might assume; I would venture the guess that it may have been carefully designed to be usable in the Mauser chamber, while maintaining the appearance to being M-S specific. That the reverse is also true, in some instances at least, is the result of chamber and cartridge tolerances. Steyr used larger cartridge-to-chamber tolerances than Mauser. Consequently the respective chambers are closer in dimensions than the cartridges.
As to the cartridge being available from Austria, unless you know of a custom loader there who loads the cartridge,no. The cartridge hasn't been loaded in a long time. Kynoch seemed to have been the last to do so. Cheers.

[Katana]

Guys,

Please try and understand that under no circumstances am I going to try and interchange ammo or make any changes in any chamber or mechanicals. I'm well aware of the consequenses of all this fooling around. Neither am I authourised to do this, since I'm not a licensed gunsmith. The rifle is with dealer and the two of us were just chatting about what could be done with it.

Regards,
Katana

-- Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:35 pm --

Guys,

Please try and understand that under no circumstances am I going to try and interchange ammo or make any changes in any chamber or mechanicals. I'm well aware of the consequenses of all this fooling around. Neither am I authourised to do this, since I'm not a licensed gunsmith. The rifle is with dealer and the two of us were just chatting about what could be done with it.

Regards,
Katana

-- Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:39 pm --

Marksman,

You have a PM. Should you have not recieved it, please let me know.

Regards,
Katana