How much of the barrel or rib should one see....

[kanwar76]

Keep it coming Inder. Afterall, in the kingdom of the blind, the one eyed jack is king.

Mack The Knife

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

[HSharief]

Rusty, I'm sure you've heard this before. "The rear sight on a shotgun is your eye." Hold that thought for a minute. How much Rib/barrel you see is entirely personal preference. Knowing "your" point of impact for the shotgun is what's paramount, in my opinion. So, forming a relationship between your rear sight (eye), the bead(s) and with your POI is what will get you to break targets. Challenge is to keep this consistent everytime.

I started writing this post in the morning right after Rusty's but submitted it now.

[Grumpy]

Bill Sykes ? Could Bill Sykes chew and spit bricks like Mehul does ? !

[Mack The Knife]

Knowing "your" point of impact for the shotgun is what's paramount, in my opinion. So, forming a relationship between your rear sight (eye), the bead(s) and with your POI is what will get you to break targets. Challenge is to keep this consistent everytime.

Now that makes sense. Thanks, Sharief.

Mack The Knife

[Ranjeet Singh]

Keep it coming Inder. Afterall, in the kingdom of the blind, the one eyed jack is king.
Mack The Knife

Hmm well, there is this good book called "Trap shooting Secrets" and "Precision shooting" both by James Russel... He has got some funda on this..

Well, what he says is that you need to see the rib/bead as a "ghost image" and focus on the bird..
That was exactly what my coach has mentioned when I started out learning trap..

Thanks
Ranjeet

[Mack The Knife]

Ta, Ranjeet.

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

The more rib you can see, the higher the gun will shoot. It`s usually a good idea to see a little rib so that the gun shoots a little high in order that you can pull the trigger just before the muzzles obliterate the target so that you can see what you are shooting at.
Trap guns often have a little vertical lead built in so that the shooter shoots below the bird but the bird is actually in the centre of the pattern.
A little visible rib amounts to about 1/4-1/2 inch ( no more ! ) in the case of a game gun.
It has to be remembered that British style game ( `wing` ) shooting is a rather different sport from competitive clay shooting. A clay gun invariably makes a rotten game gun whilst a game gun makes a passable clay gun for reasons that will become apparent.
When checking the gunfit of a game gun the temptation is to pull the gun into the shoulder and against the cheek so that the head is canted over the comb looking - usually - straight up the rib. Point ( actually aim in such a case ) the bead at a fixed target and the gun will pattern pretty evenly about it. The impression is then that the gun fits......it doesn`t. Game shooting - wing shooting - is done with the head up in a much more natural stance so that the stock is actually resting against the side of the chin and the head vertical. Check the fit again and it will probably be found that the gun now shows a very large amount of vertical rib and that the bead is off to one side or the other of the rib. Pointing ( and firing ) the gun at the same fixed target and the pattern will amost certainly miss - and often by a very large amount. The stock needs to be bent down so that the amount of rib showing is much less and bent to one side or the other ( cast ) so that the bead sits in the centre of the rib. This, along with adjusting the length of pull, is the art of gunfitting.
I ought to explain that if you imagine the rib as a railway line the bead should sit dead straight down the middle of the track. The measurement of the amount of vertical rib seen is estimated and is the apparent vertical distance between the breech end of the rib and the muzzles.
A Trap or Skeet gun has a stock with a much straighter, higher comb and much less drop. When mounted the stock naturally rests against the cheekbone.
The differences in the two types of stock are due to the very different styles of shooting they are used for. A Trap or Skeet gun is pre-mounted and the bird is called - you know exactly when and where the bird is coming/coming from and where it is going. In game shooting you don`t know when a bird is coming and they come from a much wider variety of locations AND at a much wider spread of vertical heights. A game gun therefore has to be brought to the mount when the bird is seen and must mount correctly every time without adjustment. The stock neeeds to be shorter than that of a Trap/Skeet gun to allow a quick mount without snagging which also means that a recoil pad - if fitted - has to be smooth and have rounded edges - ie. the `Silvers` type pad.
Game guns - wing shooting guns - are designed to be used much more instinctively and necessarily have to handle much better and much faster than a Trap/Skeet gun.
As has been said, a shotgun should be pointed NOT aimed. Aiming slows down the swing so that the shot is invariably behind the bird and slows the vertical rise so that the shot is usually under a rising bird. One should always focus on the bird NOT the bead and pull the trigger just after the muzzles cross the bird ( `lead`) and continue to swing through after shooting.
The term `bird` is used indiscriminately in referring to both actual birds and clays
One can compensate for a gun that shoots either a little high ( or low ) but compensating for crossing birds if the bead is offset to one side is a different matter as the lead - or drag - applied is different depending on whether the bird is coming from right to left or left to right. Shooting should be instinctive and natural - having to think about compensating slows down both the swing and reactions resulting in missed birds.
Hope this helps.
John.

[Mack The Knife]

Thanks awfully, Grumps. I plan to read a few more times with a gun in hand and then pose some questions, if any.

Is there any particular book you would recommend on the subject?

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

Either Michael Yardleys `Positive Shooting` or John Bidwells `Move, Mount, Shoot`. Both are very good but I favour Michael Yardleys `Positive Shooting` as the best book available for beginners.

[Mack The Knife]

On second thoughts it may be a while before I get a shotty in my hands so I will fire away anyway.

The more rib you can see, the higher the gun will shoot.

Ah, so my initial surmise was right. Must have developed an additional brain cell without knowing about it.

A little visible rib amounts to about 1/4-1/2 inch ( no more ! ) in the case of a game gun.

Now this really is news to me because I see anything from 1/4 to little less than 1/2 of the barrel! And neither did I miss this bit, "The measurement of the amount of vertical rib seen is estimated and is the apparent vertical distance between the breech end of the rib and the muzzles."

Until now I had no idea why people kept on about gun fit. Now I know.

The stock neeeds to be shorter than that of a Trap/Skeet gun to allow a quick mount without snagging

Rather than ask how much shorter than a trap or skeet gun, I would like to know how the length of pull is determined in the case of a game gun? Is it the usual - from the inside of your elbow to the middle of the first pad on the index finger? Or do we subtract a known constant based on the shooters build and the sort of clothes (their overall thickness) he would normally be wearing?

More doubts and questions to follow as they occur.

Thanks once again.

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

"Now this really is news to me because I see anything from 1/4 to little less than 1/2 of the barrel!"
Um.....are we in the midst of a misunderstanding here ?
I can see ALL the length of the barrels ( and rib ) but it is compressed into a short distance because of the slight vertical rise of the barrels. If the barrels/rib were completely flat ( or dropped ) none of it could be seen - just the bead. If the gun is held vertically all of the rib could be seen and the `apparent` length would be the actual length of the rib/barrels - ie. 26"/28"/30", depending on the length of the barrels. The amount of rib seen is measured as the apparent length between start and finish of the rib or barrel when estimated as a vertical distance.
Yes, the starting point for measuring LOP is the distance between the crook of the elbow and the pad of the trigger finger but allowances have to be made for individuals - portly ( ahem ! ) guys and those with beefy shoulders usually need a somewhat shorter length. Clothing needs to be taken into account as well so it`s a good idea to stick with a particular jacket.
Have you ever seen a `try gun` ? One used by a gunmaker to determine gunfit in which the stock is adjustable for LOP, cast, drop etc ?

[Grumpy]

Here`s a picture of a try gun from Holland & Hollands website......although not the best photograph. The wrist has two ( sometimes three ) articulated joints which can be moved up or down, from side to side and even allow rotation:
http://www.hollandandholland.com/shooti ... rvices.htm

[mehulkamdar]

Grumpy,

Thank you for the fantastically detailed post. Hopefully, we shall make a sticky of it in a beginners' instruction forum. That said, even advanced shotgunners have quite a bit of information in this.

Brilliant, thank you!

[Mack The Knife]

Um.....are we in the midst of a misunderstanding here ?

No. It was just me being a duffer. I understood what you said and still managed to forget that you meant an apparent distance. Thanks for the correction.

Yes, I recall seeing a pic or two of a try-gun but don't quite recall where.

Mack The Knife

[Sakobav]

Great tip Grumpy will try it out

Rgds