Could you list them and their shortcomings please.
Thanks.
Mack The Knife
Shotguns made in India.
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Mack The Knife
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Satpal_S
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Mack The Knife:
I think you are in the market for a Double Barrel.
Best Bet: If you can locate a IOF DBBL made 1968-1980, they are quite decent. Just change the sear springs(will cure misfiring) and lightly stone the internals and reassemble the gun. You will have a gun good for hunting/self defence/light duty target shooting.
Earlier ones had ejectors with numerous problems. Later on the ejector was dropped, but the guns used to shoot loose and misfire frequently. Around 1968 IOF finally rectified most problems but not infrequent misfiring.
Some Jammu built guns (NSA), Doubles only/(not their singles), from the same period were quite good. They were in fact complete guns imported in the white from Spain, stocked and blued in India. The guy only had a licence to import barrels, but managed to import whole guns illegally.
Other than that people I know tell me modern Indian guns have the following problems: Misfires, Failure to cycle, Extractors jumping the cartridge heads and cartridge sticking in barrel, with high brass ammo guns lock after firing and foreend needs to be removed to open gun, doubling is a common problem, Firing pins not retracting completely with risk of gun firing on closure.
Problems are rampant across all brands.
Imported guns too have problems.
When I was shopping for my DBBL in 1978, I came across quite a few problems/scams with imported guns. Dealers would swear the guns were A1 condition. They had no idea I knew better.
Most all Belgian Hammer/(some Hammerless too) guns were Black powder proofed despite having fluid steel barrels. Lot of English hammer guns, had Desi barrels. Many guns were cheap guns with fake Big names branded on the ribs. Some guns had paper thin barrels (scrubbed to get rid of pitting). Two thirds of guns had desi replacement parts and were badly blued. Many guns had rust underneath the ribs (checked by tapping of barrels). Some guns had no chokes because the barrels had been shortened to get rid of Bulged ends. Most guns had dents in the barrels. Most stocks were weak due to heavy oiling, quite a few guns had replacement desi stocks. I can go on and on.
Such was the state in 1978 when most shops in Delhi had quite a few Imported guns in stock. With no new imports and 28 years gone by, things could have gotten much worse.
That is why I suggested the IOF gun. (It might not be great but still functional(Sear springs replaced) and you will probably pay very little)
Satpal
PS:Ultimately I found a great (New In Box) Webley Scott Double from a private party. I still have that gun under my Masar's licence.
I think you are in the market for a Double Barrel.
Best Bet: If you can locate a IOF DBBL made 1968-1980, they are quite decent. Just change the sear springs(will cure misfiring) and lightly stone the internals and reassemble the gun. You will have a gun good for hunting/self defence/light duty target shooting.
Earlier ones had ejectors with numerous problems. Later on the ejector was dropped, but the guns used to shoot loose and misfire frequently. Around 1968 IOF finally rectified most problems but not infrequent misfiring.
Some Jammu built guns (NSA), Doubles only/(not their singles), from the same period were quite good. They were in fact complete guns imported in the white from Spain, stocked and blued in India. The guy only had a licence to import barrels, but managed to import whole guns illegally.
Other than that people I know tell me modern Indian guns have the following problems: Misfires, Failure to cycle, Extractors jumping the cartridge heads and cartridge sticking in barrel, with high brass ammo guns lock after firing and foreend needs to be removed to open gun, doubling is a common problem, Firing pins not retracting completely with risk of gun firing on closure.
Problems are rampant across all brands.
Imported guns too have problems.
When I was shopping for my DBBL in 1978, I came across quite a few problems/scams with imported guns. Dealers would swear the guns were A1 condition. They had no idea I knew better.
Most all Belgian Hammer/(some Hammerless too) guns were Black powder proofed despite having fluid steel barrels. Lot of English hammer guns, had Desi barrels. Many guns were cheap guns with fake Big names branded on the ribs. Some guns had paper thin barrels (scrubbed to get rid of pitting). Two thirds of guns had desi replacement parts and were badly blued. Many guns had rust underneath the ribs (checked by tapping of barrels). Some guns had no chokes because the barrels had been shortened to get rid of Bulged ends. Most guns had dents in the barrels. Most stocks were weak due to heavy oiling, quite a few guns had replacement desi stocks. I can go on and on.
Such was the state in 1978 when most shops in Delhi had quite a few Imported guns in stock. With no new imports and 28 years gone by, things could have gotten much worse.
That is why I suggested the IOF gun. (It might not be great but still functional(Sear springs replaced) and you will probably pay very little)
Satpal
PS:Ultimately I found a great (New In Box) Webley Scott Double from a private party. I still have that gun under my Masar's licence.
Last edited by Satpal_S on Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sakobav
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Satpal
I might have gone to school with NSA gentleman's grand son. He told me something similar regarding imports, although I thought penpusher had information to the contrary.
I agree regarding earlier version IOF DBBL made from 68 to 80. My cousin had one and it was OK per him.
BTW Baikal o/u in Punjab is worth Rs 1 Lakh!!
Rgds
navdeep
Thats a nice gun you landed there are few lucky fellas around who score such deals. Whats in a brand name, my neighbour had a revolver which had Smith and Wesson and Webley crudely inscribed on it. Joint venture out of Darra..
I might have gone to school with NSA gentleman's grand son. He told me something similar regarding imports, although I thought penpusher had information to the contrary.
I agree regarding earlier version IOF DBBL made from 68 to 80. My cousin had one and it was OK per him.
BTW Baikal o/u in Punjab is worth Rs 1 Lakh!!
Rgds
navdeep
Thats a nice gun you landed there are few lucky fellas around who score such deals. Whats in a brand name, my neighbour had a revolver which had Smith and Wesson and Webley crudely inscribed on it. Joint venture out of Darra..
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Satpal_S
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ngrewal:
Baikal for 1 lakh, daylight robbery. NIB Baikal OU's sell for $ 400 with multichokes in California.
Roughly how much would Webley Double SXS with original bluing(Some bluing gone near muzzle) and 90% case hardening on frame be worth. Gun is in mint condition all original.
No intention of selling, just curious.
Satpal.
PS:The Darra revolver you mention, are counterfeits. They are made by Darra Adem Khel(Pakistan) gunsmiths. Quite a few make their way into Kashmir and become Malkhana Arms after confiscation. I think that is where your neighbor got his.
Baikal for 1 lakh, daylight robbery. NIB Baikal OU's sell for $ 400 with multichokes in California.
Roughly how much would Webley Double SXS with original bluing(Some bluing gone near muzzle) and 90% case hardening on frame be worth. Gun is in mint condition all original.
No intention of selling, just curious.
Satpal.
PS:The Darra revolver you mention, are counterfeits. They are made by Darra Adem Khel(Pakistan) gunsmiths. Quite a few make their way into Kashmir and become Malkhana Arms after confiscation. I think that is where your neighbor got his.
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badshah0522
- Shooting true
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Hi Satpal!
Is it true that the IOF DBBL (1968-1980) model about which u have written were imported with colabration of BSA? As one of my friend was telling me.I have seen 1 & also used it ,it give sum sort of Imported looks.
Last year I sold my webley (In good condition ,same as u have mentioned) for Rs 55000/-
.Was it a gud Deal?
Thanx ,
Badshah
Is it true that the IOF DBBL (1968-1980) model about which u have written were imported with colabration of BSA? As one of my friend was telling me.I have seen 1 & also used it ,it give sum sort of Imported looks.
Last year I sold my webley (In good condition ,same as u have mentioned) for Rs 55000/-
.Was it a gud Deal?
Thanx ,
Badshah
"Strength is not about how strong u can kick, it's about how strong the life is kicking u and u standup again to keep on going"
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kanwar76
- Eminent IFG'an
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- Contact:
Re: Shotguns made in India.
As far as i 've experienced S*S goes cheaper than an U/O
-Inder
-Inder
I am the Saint the Soldier that walks in Peace. I am the Humble dust of your feet, But dont think my Spirituality makes me weak. The Heavens will roar if my Kirpan were to speak...
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Satpal_S
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badshah0522:
I am familiar with both BSA and IOF DBBL guns.
Our Bapuji (Grandfather) had a BSA Proprietary gun with ejectors and semi pistol grip stock. It was a Pre-WWII gun aquired new in the 30's. It had dovetailed barrels and was quite wide at the breech.
Our neighbor had an IOF the non-ejector kind. The gun was definitely not a BSA. It borrowed the design concept from the BSA, namely the barrel jointing and action. Other than that the stock, top rib and other things were different. The gun was well built, internal parts were hardened steel. Sadly like any IOF product it was badly assembled and finished. The Sear-springs(kamani) were desi and took a set and the guns misfired often. It was a popular Import alternative in the 70's going at 50% of the price of a used imported gun. If the kamani(Springs) were replaced the guns were very reliable and could last 1000+ rounds before shooting loose.
Regarding the Webley you sold for 55K, I cannot say whether you got a fair price. Here in California collectors of English guns pay upto $2000 for used Webley SXS, while new Baikal/Remington Spartan OU's collect dust on dealer shelf's at $400 on sale. Ngrewal mentioned Baikals sell for 1 lakh in punjab, it just does not add up.
To cut a long story short, shotguns are hunting implements. The ban on hunting has made them redundand. For the city dweller the Revolvers/Pistols are the preferred choice. Target shooting too can be done adequately with good Air Rifles/Pistols. So who needs a shotgun, people in rural areas.
Satpal
I am familiar with both BSA and IOF DBBL guns.
Our Bapuji (Grandfather) had a BSA Proprietary gun with ejectors and semi pistol grip stock. It was a Pre-WWII gun aquired new in the 30's. It had dovetailed barrels and was quite wide at the breech.
Our neighbor had an IOF the non-ejector kind. The gun was definitely not a BSA. It borrowed the design concept from the BSA, namely the barrel jointing and action. Other than that the stock, top rib and other things were different. The gun was well built, internal parts were hardened steel. Sadly like any IOF product it was badly assembled and finished. The Sear-springs(kamani) were desi and took a set and the guns misfired often. It was a popular Import alternative in the 70's going at 50% of the price of a used imported gun. If the kamani(Springs) were replaced the guns were very reliable and could last 1000+ rounds before shooting loose.
Regarding the Webley you sold for 55K, I cannot say whether you got a fair price. Here in California collectors of English guns pay upto $2000 for used Webley SXS, while new Baikal/Remington Spartan OU's collect dust on dealer shelf's at $400 on sale. Ngrewal mentioned Baikals sell for 1 lakh in punjab, it just does not add up.
To cut a long story short, shotguns are hunting implements. The ban on hunting has made them redundand. For the city dweller the Revolvers/Pistols are the preferred choice. Target shooting too can be done adequately with good Air Rifles/Pistols. So who needs a shotgun, people in rural areas.
Satpal
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penpusher
Re: Shotguns made in India.
People in India check up on the internet as to what price a shotgun of a particular make has fetched.Then they start quoting the same price not realising that the high price that they see may be because of the model and extras like engraving and fine wood and the conditon of the gun like original finish and soundness of the action.The large majority of the guns here,even of the Londons best ,are just pieces of scrap and plain dangerous to fire.Some would require a small fortune to bring them back to a condition where the prices demanded would be justified.Not every body could afford to buy a fine gun and the vast majority,I would say 90% or more ,of the old imported arms,are cheap though functional guns.
Ngrewal,
The price of shotguns and .32 revolvers has seen a downward turn in the last couple of years.Conversly,the price of pistols and rifles has gone up.Infact they are at crazy levels now especially of 30-06 rifles.
The general refrain here is,"It's a rare piece" for a rifle that might have been produced in the thousands.Or ,"It's an antique piece".
penpusher
Ngrewal,
The price of shotguns and .32 revolvers has seen a downward turn in the last couple of years.Conversly,the price of pistols and rifles has gone up.Infact they are at crazy levels now especially of 30-06 rifles.
The general refrain here is,"It's a rare piece" for a rifle that might have been produced in the thousands.Or ,"It's an antique piece".
penpusher
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Sakobav
- Old Timer
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- Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 7:28 pm
- Location: US
Satpal
Last year I was offered Citori with decent amount of shots through it for rs 2lakhs, Anchutz .22 rifle for Rs 1.8 laks, CZ 27 .32 ( German markings) was bought for Rs 2 Lakhs and change, .30-06 Winch for Rs 2 lakhs actually it was trade.
Inder is correct regarding o/u commanding higher price than sxs.
Regarding your gun it should command a decent price. Somebody here mentioned that Holland shotgun was sale for Rs 5 Lakhs in Jaipur.
There are others who can give you better estimate and mine info is all heresay.
You are very correct regarding Baikal in US. I am looking for Shotgun in states and cannot justify spending $2000 on first gun equivalent of Baikal in India. NYC area is another minni India with gun law permit restrictions.
Just curious can US citizen apply for lic in India or one needs dual citizenship?
Thanks
NG
Last year I was offered Citori with decent amount of shots through it for rs 2lakhs, Anchutz .22 rifle for Rs 1.8 laks, CZ 27 .32 ( German markings) was bought for Rs 2 Lakhs and change, .30-06 Winch for Rs 2 lakhs actually it was trade.
Inder is correct regarding o/u commanding higher price than sxs.
Regarding your gun it should command a decent price. Somebody here mentioned that Holland shotgun was sale for Rs 5 Lakhs in Jaipur.
There are others who can give you better estimate and mine info is all heresay.
You are very correct regarding Baikal in US. I am looking for Shotgun in states and cannot justify spending $2000 on first gun equivalent of Baikal in India. NYC area is another minni India with gun law permit restrictions.
Just curious can US citizen apply for lic in India or one needs dual citizenship?
Thanks
NG
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Satpal_S
- On the way to nirvana
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- Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:27 am
Ngrewal:
Am in the same boat as you are.
Had to park my Shotgun and Revolver under my relatives licences, sold my 22 to a cousin. At that time there was no dual citizenship.
Now with dual citizenship, things might have changed. (I still have not reclaimed my Indian citizenship).
I will be checking Licencing issues for dual citizens, once my Indian citizenship comes.
RE: Paying too much for guns. I bought my Beretta 686 Onyx 20 gauge almost new from somebody at the range(1994). The guy paid $1060 for the gun and sold it to me for 800 with 2 extra chokes, case of ammo and a nice hard case. So basically I got 1250-1300 worth of stuff. Always buy used guns at the range. You get to try them(pattern/fit/balance) and somebody else takes the depreciation.
RE:NYC, it's a pain. I used to live in NJ, same BS. Had to get fingerprinted and checked for NJFID card (good for long-guns only). The process(Payment of a nice fee too) had to be repeated every time I had to buy a handgun. It was a pain.
NY upstate was nice, very little controls.
Have fun and keep posting!!
Satpal
Am in the same boat as you are.
Had to park my Shotgun and Revolver under my relatives licences, sold my 22 to a cousin. At that time there was no dual citizenship.
Now with dual citizenship, things might have changed. (I still have not reclaimed my Indian citizenship).
I will be checking Licencing issues for dual citizens, once my Indian citizenship comes.
RE: Paying too much for guns. I bought my Beretta 686 Onyx 20 gauge almost new from somebody at the range(1994). The guy paid $1060 for the gun and sold it to me for 800 with 2 extra chokes, case of ammo and a nice hard case. So basically I got 1250-1300 worth of stuff. Always buy used guns at the range. You get to try them(pattern/fit/balance) and somebody else takes the depreciation.
RE:NYC, it's a pain. I used to live in NJ, same BS. Had to get fingerprinted and checked for NJFID card (good for long-guns only). The process(Payment of a nice fee too) had to be repeated every time I had to buy a handgun. It was a pain.
NY upstate was nice, very little controls.
Have fun and keep posting!!
Satpal
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Sakobav
- Old Timer
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- Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 7:28 pm
- Location: US
Satpal
There are very limited ranges here and its hard to get B gun used less than 1500. I guess changing times.
Its great you were able to park guns in India, Mehul also has some guns in India ( I think). Atleast you did not leave with the gun house guys.
You are so correct about NJ and NYC, I had to hire a lwayer to assist me with gun permits.
Looking forward to your informative posts
Cheers
There are very limited ranges here and its hard to get B gun used less than 1500. I guess changing times.
Its great you were able to park guns in India, Mehul also has some guns in India ( I think). Atleast you did not leave with the gun house guys.
You are so correct about NJ and NYC, I had to hire a lwayer to assist me with gun permits.
Looking forward to your informative posts
Cheers
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mehulkamdar
Re: Shotguns made in India.
Satpal,
This may be OT but I saw a Beretta Pigeon grade shotgun U/O Grade IV with gold engraving on a blackened receiver along with Inder and was badly disappointed with what I saw at the store. The rib holding the barrels together was uneven and when I noticed it the salesman tried to step in and tell me that it was grease that gave the impression. I tried removing the "grease" with my thumb and there was none. For a $ 3000+ shotgun the quality was abominable and I could see a gun waiting to come apart with some use.
Navdeep,
Like Satpal I have "parked" a 22 lr single shot rifle with a friend on his license and it will never be sold - it would be transferred to me if and when I return. I still have my old Savage-Stevens shotgun on my license and that is with a dealer in Chennai who is holding it for me.
Cheers!
This may be OT but I saw a Beretta Pigeon grade shotgun U/O Grade IV with gold engraving on a blackened receiver along with Inder and was badly disappointed with what I saw at the store. The rib holding the barrels together was uneven and when I noticed it the salesman tried to step in and tell me that it was grease that gave the impression. I tried removing the "grease" with my thumb and there was none. For a $ 3000+ shotgun the quality was abominable and I could see a gun waiting to come apart with some use.
Navdeep,
Like Satpal I have "parked" a 22 lr single shot rifle with a friend on his license and it will never be sold - it would be transferred to me if and when I return. I still have my old Savage-Stevens shotgun on my license and that is with a dealer in Chennai who is holding it for me.
Cheers!
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Satpal_S
- On the way to nirvana
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:27 am
Mehul:
You are right, dealers in the US are no different from dealers in India. Buy low and sell for 1.5 times.
Buying a used gun, "let the buyer beware", is what works.
That's why buying at the range is best.
You pay pennies on the dollars, plus get to shoot and try the gun.
I bought my beretta in 1994 and have put 15000+ rounds through it flawlessly.
Gun is a beauty, I will post pictures in a couple of weeks, alongwith pictures of my new Air Pistol.
Have fun,
Satpal
PS: Does anybody know where is Mack The Knife, have'nt seen him post for a few days now?
You are right, dealers in the US are no different from dealers in India. Buy low and sell for 1.5 times.
Buying a used gun, "let the buyer beware", is what works.
That's why buying at the range is best.
You pay pennies on the dollars, plus get to shoot and try the gun.
I bought my beretta in 1994 and have put 15000+ rounds through it flawlessly.
Gun is a beauty, I will post pictures in a couple of weeks, alongwith pictures of my new Air Pistol.
Have fun,
Satpal
PS: Does anybody know where is Mack The Knife, have'nt seen him post for a few days now?
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eljefe
- Old Timer
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- Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:37 am