IFG Members support for RKBA PIL

[SURFACE TO AIR MISSILE]

Guys,click on the following webpage link,quite a interesting one !

http://74.125.93.132/search?hl=en&q=cac ... f&oq=&aqi=#


SAM

[ravi.sharma]

Hello everyone,

Do you still think, you dont need to fight for RKBA, then at least do as guided in the Video for your safety.

[youtube][/youtube]


Ravi

[goodboy_mentor]

We should have a systematic approach to the problem, and firstly try to get the import ban off and then try to approach the courts for changing the notion of the police department that income cannot be the sole criterion for eligibility of licence. Good antecedents alone are the sole criterion. since it entirely depends upon the discretion of the police whether an individual is eligible for licence it is almost certain that the courts would not issue a blanket order regarding easy licencing procedure. So I would suggest that any individual whose licence has been turned down on the ground of income criterion or/ and having already owning a firearm licence should approach the Court first and then if we pull in to get his same I can promise you that we would have a precedent or ratio for the others following.

I fully agree with with above opinion of Jayanta Mukherjee. I believe following clauses of Arms Act cause the problem:
CHAPTER III - PROVISIONS RELATING TO LICENCES
13. Grant of licences
:
(2) On receipt of an application, the licensing authority, after making such inquiry, if any, as it may consider necessary, shall, subject to the other provisions of this Chapter, by order in writing either grant the licence or refuse to grant the same.
:
14. Refusal of licences
(i) where such licence is required by a person whom the licensing authority has reason to believe---
(1) to be prohibited by this Act or by any other law for the time being in force from acquiring, having in his possession or carrying any arms or ammunition, or
(2) to be of unsound mind, or
(3) to be for any reason unfit for a licence under this Act; or
(ii) where the licensing authority deems it necessary for the security of the public peace or for public safety to refuse to grant such licence.

So the loose clauses/terms in Arms Act that keep the applicants at the mercy of licensing authority to get firearm license:
1)"Inquiry" - Recommendation of inquiry can be anything(time for completion of inquiry is another pain)
2)"Reason to believe" - A loose term, can be any reason based on personal perception of licensing authority.
3)"Any reason" - Another loose term, can be any reason based on personal perception of licensing authority.
4)"Public peace"/"Public safety" - Another loose term/excuse open to be interpreted as per personal perception of licensing authority.

I believe these loose terms "Inquiry", "Reason to believe", "Any reason", "Public peace"/"Public safety" need to go. A person can be a danger to "Public peace"/"Public safety" only when he is insane or is a proclaimed offender(means he is evading the due process of law). Those who are real danger to public peace/safety, are not dependent on licensing authority for getting arms licenses. They have their own ways and means to get much better firearms at a much cheaper cost. Our Hon'ble Home Minister has publicly accepted this fact: http://www.ptinews.com/news/345543_Maoi ... hidambaram

The fight has to be in a systematic, organized way, with lot of supporters in every section and level of society. One idea I can think of is, we can have a particular section in this website, were people facing difficulties in obtaining firearm license and willing to support the cause, can write their problems. After we get large number of people facing difficulty in obtaining license, a PIL is filed in any High Court, to ask government to reconsider the law, to make it very specific, leaving no room for individuals in Licensing Authority to implement Arms Act as per their personal ideas.

Any ideas about legal feasibility and other acceptable ways/means to convince the government to see the reality are welcome.

[captrakshitsharma]

yesssssssssss and i can say it a thousand times.... and then again

[goodboy_mentor]

http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7731

[ravi.sharma]

Hi GBM,

As it is famous, In India, Before making or implementing ONE rule, 100 ways are kept in mind to Break / Bend it, the loose points in the ARMS ACT are very good example of the same . The suggestion by you to dedicate a section for Liecensing problem seems to be a good idea, lets see what the MODS have to say about it.


Ravi.

[eternalme]

I sent a letter to the ministery of home affairs regarding changing the policy.
Received a letter from the under secretary , govt of India regarding the same stating that your Request will be considered as and when the law is revised.

Another letter gone in the thik big files for getting dust.

[ravi.sharma]

Hi eternalme,

I sent a letter to the ministery of home affairs regarding changing the policy.
Received a letter from the under secretary , govt of India regarding the same stating that your Request will be considered as and when the law is revised.

Another letter gone in the thik big files for getting dust.

You should still consider your selve lucky to receive a reply . Nice try though.


Ravi.

[chucky]

Yes to both the propositions. If weapons should be banned irrespective of the category, then kitchen knives also fall under the classification of weapon. The onus is on the person using the tool, rather than the tool itself. In other words Hang the murderer not the gun. But in the Indian context it is like flogging a dead horse.

-- Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:46 pm --

I sent a letter to the ministery of home affairs regarding changing the policy.
Received a letter from the under secretary , govt of India regarding the same stating that your Request will be considered as and when the law is revised.

Another letter gone in the thik big files for getting dust.

right on the point.
"as and when" means Kiss your petition Goodbye.

[muthu]

NO, NO, NO

i think most of you did not understand indian situation.
yes, we (me too) love guns, love firing, love the sound, love the thrill behind it.....etc.....
But NO free flow of guns in every one hands....

Every one knows that tension / anger spoils health.
But is it possible to say that we wont get tension / anger at any point in our life ?
No, it is not in our control.

Like wise, if we have free flow of guns, without our knowledge we will tend to use it against human at some point of time.
yes, you can punish, hang, jail, cut limbs,...etc, do what ever you want on the person who used the gun.
yes, he will also realize his mistake later on....

But on the other side, a gone life is gone. We cannot bring it back at ANY cost.
Be that life an unknown person, or one of your closest blood relation, it has the same value

That's why even a police to get shooting order, needs to get permission from n number of officials.

LIFE IS VERY PRECIOUS

Aware about the situation in US, where they announce different governemnt schemes like
exchange of books, free educations, etc..... for guns returned by citizens.
It is because, they have realized the impact of free flow of guns.

Let us not do that mistake in India.

[chucky]

NO, NO, NO

i think most of you did not understand indian situation.
yes, we (me too) love guns, love firing, love the sound, love the thrill behind it.....etc.....
But NO free flow of guns in every one hands....

Every one knows that tension / anger spoils health.
But is it possible to say that we wont get tension / anger at any point in our life ?
No, it is not in our control.

Like wise, if we have free flow of guns, without our knowledge we will tend to use it against human at some point of time.
yes, you can punish, hang, jail, cut limbs,...etc, do what ever you want on the person who used the gun.
yes, he will also realize his mistake later on....

But on the other side, a gone life is gone. We cannot bring it back at ANY cost.

Be that life an unknown person, or one of your closest blood relation, it has the same value

That's why even a police to get shooting order, needs to get permission from n number of officials.

LIFE IS VERY PRECIOUS

Aware about the situation in US, where they announce different governemnt schemes like
exchange of books, free educations, etc..... for guns returned by citizens.
It is because, they have realized the impact of free flow of guns.

Let us not do that mistake in India.

Do u mean to say that there are no illegal guns in India. Try to find the murderers of all the people who have been shot in the past three years. People who tend to misuse it are the people who acquire it through illegal methods. U have a weapon in hand which cant be traced back to u then u misuse it. When u know that u will be caught, no one in his right mind will be using it. I am not advocating for guns being distributed through PDS. For that matter do u think murder is a unknown phenomenon in India, telling people not to do something when they don't have the option to choose is very easy. As far as USA is concerned, The government is willing to buy back the guns, NOT BAN THE SALES. People would bring down the Government crying hoarse about their first amendment. What is freedom all about if i cant choose. People die every day after being burnt, accident involving vehicles, being aboard a bus, train or a plane for that matter, does it mean u propose to ban Kerosene, petrol, LPG, All of the public transport available. Many People have died after falling in open drains. Banning Drainage is not a option or a solution. I am not insensitive to these instances. But Try not to treat the symptoms, Treat the Disease. As u said LIFE IS VERY PRECIOUS, can i have something to defend it? Why do people think that a gun is just a weapon for offensive and destructive purposes, it can also be used for defensive purposes. As i said before BLAME THE USER NOT THE TOOL.

[cottage cheese]

Muthu,

While some individuals may talk loosely or carelessly of a totally free gun market in India, it is the opinion of the majority of us gun people, including most at IFG, that regulations are certainly needed....even more so in a country as diverse and transitional as India. We don't talk of removing Arms regulation, even though we crib a lot against it. Our collective 'campaign' is directed at more reasonable and less restrictive Arms Regulation.

Why should most of us not be able understand the Indian situation? We are Indians, and we tend to be aware of most of whats happening around us and to our nation...

To live in a fence-sitting benumbed pacifist utopia which you appear to propagating is your right. May it also be known that I think it reflects a distinctly exclusive mindset that many establishment folks and their darlings have. In simpler words I exercise my right to disagree with you views, and also the right to be more than annoyed at it.

So you love guns, you have guns, then what of your fellow citizen who might be less privileged and perhaps less connected. If you believe guns are meant for the joy of light and sound and meant only for putting holes on paper, then I think its you who is getting the wrong gauge of things. It's typical of the confused post independence gobbledygook of Gandhian, socialist , progressive, democratic etc. ideas that the establishment chose to propound as the ideals of the nation....forgetting that Gandhi also talked of preferring violent measures to cowardice.

What of the right to self defense? ...life property..loved ones? No I don't think a cretin repenting in jail for murdering me or my loved ones will help in anyway. Is the life of the invader of my house or the anal-polyps that perpetrated 26-11 so precious? Precious enough that I'd rather allow myself to be shot that shoot back in defense? Don't make me laugh!

The lives of decent, civilized law abiding, citizens is precious irrespective of social standing, community or religion. Why should that be equated with senseless criminals murderers & terrorists? I put no worth on the lives of such scum. Once such a life is gone - GOOD!, and its even more fortunate that its not coming back.

You failed to gauge the fact that all that we ask for is free and fair availability of legal guns to citizenry who meet the criteria under law.

Would you believe that the Arms Act 1959, save for a number of idiotic sections, is in theory pretty fair? The problems in Indian governance is with interpretation. What the law says and what is practiced are very different things.

regards,
cc

[eternalme]

Hi Guys,

Did any one receive any response from Ministry regarding this? I received a letter some days back, probably their way of saying - Shutup and thankyou

[indiaone]

I fully supportive the move of filing a PIL to get the ban on importation of firearms lifted. However, before doing so we have to be clear of our approach to the whole issue of arms control , possession and importation.
It would be better to approach one issue at a time.
Arms control and right to possess arms are very sensitive issues and are bound to generate considerable public debate. Therefore, we should first concentrate on lifting of ban on importation of arms . This is very simple as it needs only a Government notification to make the necessary changes in the Customs Regulations.
In case we go in for a PIL , it will take considerable time. A faster attempt can be done by requesting some members of parliament to raise the issue. Shri Digvijay Singh MP and former Minster of State for External Affairs is an actively associated with Rifle Associations. It would be worthwhile to approach him, when he is in Delhi. IF any of the members of the forum who are based in Delhi can kindly take the initative and make an attempt, it would be perhaps a positive development.

[goodboy_mentor]

eternalme,

First of all I would like to thank you for having made THE EFFORT. This is one of the most important thing. We need to put in a collective, systematic and concentrated effort. I have already given a suggestion about separate section about problems faced acquiring firearm license, so that we can collect actionable data in sufficient quantity:
http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... &start=131

As I have already mentioned at:
http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 2&start=92
that the loose terms/sections in Arms Act need to go, as they are the cause of real problems. So long government babus are given the freedom to "interpret" any law as per their personal perception, there are bound to be problems. Arms Act should be crystal clear as to want can be done and what cannot be done.

And for people with opinions like that of muthu, I would like to tell them that in India, for criminals it is already a "free for all" affair to get a firearm. Did the perpetrators of 26/11 come to get a "license"
before committing a crime? On the contrary Arms Act made their job easier by ensuring that none of their victims was armed to harm them.

If criminals depended on "licensed" firearms, then we would be having a virtually crime free society, but reality is just the opposite. Government of India has already "accepted" this indirectly:
http://disarmament.un.org/cab/bms3/1BMS ... 02008.html

Criminals and lunatics will always have access to firearms regardless of the law. So whom does this Arms Act is actually controlling? It us, the law abiding citizens. Present situation is:

1) Criminals are fully armed & law abiding citizens(victims) are unarmed. Making the job of criminals EASY.

Believe me, even if we have a free for all arms policy, the only problem it will create is, it will make the job of criminals more RISKY:

2)Criminals fully armed as before & law abiding citizen equally armed to defend themselves from criminals.

We should not feel guilty if we demand RKBA or for that matter even if some people are demanding "free for all" firearms policy.