Identification of shotgun

[joydeepm]

Well after the long wait ( for me at least ) i got some more pics. I instructed my friend to rub in some powder on the shotgun etchings to bring them out and here they are gents . Can I have a positive ID now ? I am heartbroken on the rifle though . Does not look like a Jeffrey at all does it ? since when did lee speed make rifles for jeffrey ? Is it possible to have a confirmed ID on the rifle and the calibre please ?

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To me at least the rifle looks like a lee speed 0.303 cape rifle

[winnie_the_pooh]

Joydeep,

That is a BSA Lee Speed in 303.A desirable version of a much sought after rifle abroad but in very poor condition.It is a PB rifle here.No wonder the gentleman was reffering to it as a .306

I know of a person who may be interested as he has a license for a 303 rifle. PB rifles do not command a price beyond 15-20,000/- at the most.Less for a rifle like this.The gentleman selling it may be looking at a higher figure.

PS-Cape guns are double barrel SXS guns with one rifled and one smooth bore barrel.

[cottage cheese]

Well regardless of the poor condition, the SxS seems pretty crude. It also looks to be Soviet... not Russian... The engravings are pretty basic... not to mention coarse.

[darwinmauser]

The shotgun will serve you well for a lifetime with a bit of basic care ,the important part is "does it fit you" ,there's nothing worse than a shotgun that doesn't point when it is thrown up to the shoulder and getting the length of pull altered ,or the cast changed will add to the expenses.

The Lee Speed I would grab with both hands if it came my way despite it poor exterior,however I live in Australia so that won't happen.
Back in the late 40s and early 50s the state of New South Wales made it illegal to own a rifle in 303 British caliber ,the gunsmiths here got around the law by removing the barrel ,machining one turn of thread off the barrel and remounting it ,this had the effect of making it so a 303 cartridge could not be chambered , they then bumped back the shoulder of the 303 cartridge until it chambered. The result was I think called the 7.7 x 54 R which confused the hell out of the government because they were ignorant of metric measurements at that time.

The rifle may also not be a 303 ,they were also built in 375 and 8mm ,it would be best to have a good hard look before making a decision.

[Vikram]

Joydeep,

My Russian expert says It reads "Model IZH-26", which is an early Baikal model.How long are the barrels,BTW?It also reads "Made in USSR".

The Lee-Speed is a nice rifle. I had an opportunity to get a very nice one by Moore,Grey and Lang for a very reasonable price.I did not but that's a different story.Did he say 12 rounds?I thought it takes 10 rounds.

I am slightly surprised that an army gentleman allowed the rifle to stay in that condition.Sorry, no disrespect meant to your friend.

Best-
Vikram
Vikram

[joydeepm]

Dear Winnie ,

thanks for the positive ID .
If you check up this link ( http://www.wdlr.org.uk/stensby/firearms.htm) , the 11th picture from the top ( 2nd rifle from top in the pic) , you can see a single barrel 0.303 by William, More & Grey , which is described as a Cape rifle ( not Cape gun) .
I shall let you know about the gentleman's expectations . Is it still possible that this may be 30.06 ? how do I confirm this other than getting hold of a 30.06 bullet and chambering it ?

Darwin

them aussies are smart


Vikram
The barrels ( as my friend confirms are 29 inch ) . I have not measured them myself . So if there is no "play" , no major rusting/pitting inside the barrels , and if it feels nice and comfy ( after going thru the exhaustive check list provided in the forum ) - do I buy it for 30000 indian rupees ? will it be worth it ?
The rifle belongs to the father of a friend and since he is aged and retired all I can do is kick my friend in the gluteus maximus ( mods may note that no foul language has been used and some mods I am sure could actually kill a guy for letting a rifle go to waste like that ) .
I shall see both the weapons soon enough .

Best
Joydeep

[mundaire]

30,000 is a very reasonable price, so long as the "wear" is merely cosmetic. Colour case hardening usually wears out rather quickly and since the colour case hardening is still very evident, it would seem that there are very high chances of it being in decent nick. To give you an idea of price point, good Indian made doubles retail for around the 20K mark... therefore, as long as this does not require expensive mechanical repairs, it will be a good buy.

The rifle has what appears to be a magazine cut-off, I'm no expert on SMLE's but I'd imagine that would mean this is one of the earlier examples... Pre-1916?

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[joydeepm]

Dear Abhijeet

thanks for your opinion

The rifle could well be of the vintage that you have indicated as it was bought by my friends grandpa .

Pity it did no turn out to be a Jeffrey as I was told .

If you check your PM , I had asked for your personal opinion on a subject .

Cheers!
Joydeep

[darwinmauser]

" The rifle has what appears to be a magazine cut-off, I'm no expert on SMLE's but I'd imagine that would mean this is one of the earlier examples... Pre-1916? "

Definitely pre 1916 ,the rifle is built on a LEC action ,these were used by mounted troops in the Boer war ,they were replaced by the SMLE in about 1906. It's easy to id an LEC action ,they don't have any provision for a safety or volley sight on the left side.The magazine is probably a replacement ,the Lee Speed mag was only 5 rounds although 10 round mag was an option.

I would be interested to know how much he is asking for the rifle and what condition the barrel is in.

cheers
Pete

[Risala]

- do I buy it for 30000 indian rupees ? will it be worth it ?

Joydeep

Consider your self lucky,if you were to buy the same gun from a dealer you would pay atleast double if not more

[joydeepm]

Hurray ,

I at last got to see the gun and in my limited knowledge ...it seemed in damn fine nick . Got the checklist out from the forum and ticked off .threw it up to the shoulder a few times and shot at am imaginary boar - felt nice in my hand too ...not very heavy , not too light . Got the stock and the barrels separated , nothing rattles , no rust , innards look good , no pitting , a little rust on the outside of the barrels - superficial- nothing that sandpaper cannot cure . Overall - Good .

the rifle - remaied a mystery . There were no bullets - so short of taking it to a smithy - I wont know . The guy said that the cartridges were definitely bigger than a .303.

[winnie_the_pooh]

The Lee Speed was made in 303,8x50R aka .315( interchangeable with the KF .315) and .375 2 1/2" NE(not to be confused with .375 H&H).The cartridge length is about the same for all the three cartridges.The .375 is a 303 cartridge opened up for the bigger bullet.The 8mm/.315 also has the same over all length though with a shorter case than the 303.The difference made up by the big 244 grain bullet.

The caliber is always clearly marked on the receiver unless it is a service rifle in which case it is not.BSA sold the Lee speed in different configurations and some were bought privately for service use.

The Lee Enfield was never made in 30-06.The likely consequences of a country hack job to convert it to 30-06 would be death of the rifle and possibly of the person using it.A rifle bolt through the skull is sure to ruin any ones day.The action is amply strong for the cartridge it was designed for but not for anything else.

[Risala]

Hurray ,
I at last got to see the gun and in my limited knowledge ...it seemed in damn fine nick . Got the checklist out from the forum and ticked off .threw it up to the shoulder a few times and shot at am imaginary boar - felt nice in my hand too ...not very heavy , not too light . Got the stock and the barrels separated , nothing rattles , no rust , innards look good , no pitting , a little rust on the outside of the barrels - superficial- nothing that sandpaper cannot cure . Overall - Good .

Joydeep go for it....good value for money....will serve you for a long time....can take a lot of abuse...

[cottage cheese]

...well whatever the make or vintage, its Soviet so you can be sure its brutally tough. With most of its Color Case hardening still intact, I could make a small guess that its been well cared for, and perhaps not handled too much. Certainly not a premium heirloom piece but I think it will serve as a good work gun for a long time.

Regards,
cc

[TwoRivers]

[quote="winnie_the_pooh"]The Lee Speed was made in 303,8x50R aka .315( interchangeable with the KF .315) and .375 2 1/2" NE(not to be confused with .375 H&H).The cartridge length is about the same for all the three cartridges.The .375 is a 303 cartridge opened up for the bigger bullet.The 8mm/.315 also has the same over all length though with a shorter case than the 303.The difference made up by the big 244 grain bullet.

The .375 is more than just a necked-up .303, it has a longer case of the same base diameter. Also, the Lee Speed action was used by just about all the British rifle makers for sporting rifles, as were the later versions of the Lee.