concealed carry...disturbing trend

[Bruno22]

Sorry to jump start this old topic but I was browsing and just could not resist. Dev has some very good points about how to not get into a fight or to try and avert a potentially dangerous situation with common sense and above all a lot to decency. I am a licensed gun owner but its for sport only and I guess I would look quite a sight with a rifle strapped over my shoulder. I prefer to carry a small knife. Normally its one of the smaller spyderco's or even the Buck heartshook. These handy little fellas are a great insurance policy when it comes to cutting an apple or lacerating some ones forearm. Gratefully I have only had to use it for the former but its there if the latter situation arises.

[MoA]

If you can walk away... or run... do so please.
If not...

[dev]

We have had some serious shootings recently. In one case of road rage the deceased was armed with a pistol but the killer put four into him. It isn't clear whether he got a chance to draw. Yesterday some chaps shot a guy who had given them a car loan. What worries me is you have a knife but what if the other guy has a pistola eh?


Dev

[timmy]

Regarding Dev's post, which I've seen for the first time, and the comments to it, I'd like to add 3 stories of my own:

First has to do with Dev's advice about parking in a well-lighted place. I recall an acquaintance who, when driving into Chicago to see shows at the Chicago Amphitheater (not in a nice section of town), would prepare his fancy 4x4 truck in a novel way: He lived on a dairy farm, and he'd drive his truck into a holding pasture before going into the city and "four wheel" with reckless abandon, taking care only to get his truck thoroughly coated with as much manure as possible. His truck did get attention, as it could be smelled from quite a way away, but nobody ever bothered it.

Second, regarding Dev's idea of staying out of trouble by avoiding it: there are simply some places more prone to trouble than others. A woman I worked with almost lost her mother in this way: She was playing pool in a bar with her husband and friends. In the bar was a belligerent person who had too much to drink. The bartender refused to serve him anymore and threw him out. The fellow came back and launched some .30-30 rounds thru the front door, one of which struck my friend's mother and destroyed part of her liver. She did nothing wrong and was an innocent bystander, yet she was in a place where the likelihood of such things happening was higher than normal. Nobody can guarantee that this kind of thing won't happen in any place, but we all have our judgment about what risks should and should not be taken.

Third was a personal experience, and my only one involving a gun and self defense.

I was working in Eastern Montana, and the time was during the early 80s. A great effort was going on in Eastern Montana, Wyoming, and Colorado to find sources of oil in what is called "The Overthrust Belt." Oil riggers from all over the country had come into this area, which is one of the least populated ones in America. The number of violent crimes like rape and murder had skyrocketed.

As I was away from my family, one of my favorite pastimes was to go to the Snowden Bridge on the Missouri River. Built before WW1, this bridge was unique in being the last combination railroad and automobile bridge still operating in the nation. The bridge had been decked over so that both trains and cars could cross the river. The location of the bridge was very remote, about 20 miles west of the North Dakota state line. Here are some pictures. I will not post them here because they are so large, but if anyone is interested, they can access them by these links:

http://www.siahq.org/tours/nemontana/im ... OHV124.gif

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/7876422.jpg

http://www.siahq.org/tours/nemontana/im ... nohv19.gif

http://www.social.mtu.edu/ia/chapters/k ... 900006.jpg

The laws of the USA specified that bridges that crossed navigable rivers had to make allowance for river traffic, which is why there is a lift section on the bridge. As I understand it, the last time the span had been lifted was in connection with the construction of the Ft. Peck Dam further upriver in the 1930s.

As you can see from the winter picture, the river would freeze over solid. I enjoyed being there during the ice breakup, and once watched as a huge ice floe came downstream and hit the bridge. This ice floe was much longer than the distance to the bridge in any of these photographs, and was about 3 feet or so thick. I was standing at the pier in the middle of the stream and was interested in seeing what happened when the floe hit the bridge -- I could barely sense when it happened!

At the one end of the bridge, there was a large grassy area where people would throw all of their beer bottles and cans. I would go out there on weekends with my handguns and shoot these for hours -- I've always loved doing that. One time, a friend came thru town and visited me, and I took him out to this bridge. You will see that at the top of the lifting span, there is a little house, which in the latest picture is practically destroyed. When I was there, it looked like the other pictures. In that house, there was a 3 cylinder kerosene engine that was used to lift the bridge. There were stairs on the outside of the bridge that led up there -- I always wanted to see the engine, but I'm afraid of heights and could never muster up the courage to climb up there on those exposed steps. My friend did so, however.

While he was up there, I was standing above the pier when a truck came on the bridge from the far side -- three spans away. I could hear him gun his motor and charge me -- he was going to play "chicken" with me and see what I would do. He reached a great speed. I figured that I would jump over the handrail at the last moment and since it was right over the pier, he would have hit the big truss works and could not have hit me. Right at the last moment, he slammed on his brakes and pulled even with me. The windows on his truck were rolled down and there were two men in the front seat and a boy, maybe 14 or 15, in the back. They had been drinking.

I had my Ruger .45 Colt SA in a shoulder holster on, it was in plain sight. The driver, in a very belligerent tone, shouted at me: "What the #### do you think you're doing here?" I kept total eye contact with him and said in as defiant of a tone as I could, "I'm standing here." He continued to glare at me, and I glared back at him.

The river at that point is probably 20" or 30" deep, but it is extremely dangerous because the current is quite strong and the bottom is packed with centuries of old tree snags and whatever: if you go down, you can get snagged and never come up. (I have a story about that, too -- so it was a realistic fear of mine.) Since I swim like an axe (head first), I decided that I was not going to go for a swim to provide fun for these drunks and that if the driver opened his door, I was going to pull the Ruger and I was going to blow him away -- right then and there. So I was focused on his movements totally. As I was watching, the thought ran thru my mind that, if I shot him, there would be two people in the truck who would witness against me and my friend was nowhere to be seen. That was a problem that would have needed solving...

We glared at each other for a long time and finally, he shouted at me, "Well, why don't you shoot me, you mother####?" With that, he jammed the pedal down and roared off of the bridge to the side where my truck was parked. They stopped, but did not get near my truck. Instead, they walked to the grassy area where all the beer cans and bottles were and relieved themselves, got back in their truck, and went away.

Then, my friend came down from the little house on the top of the bridge.

I was pretty shaken about this, since it had appeared to me that my choices were either to swim in that river with my clothes and boots on, or to blow away 3 people and go to jail for it. I did not think it worthwhile to go to jail for the rest of my life to dust 3 dirt bags, but I knew even more that I wasn't going to go swimming, either.

A very unpleasant circumstance.

I am still sure to this day that, had I not had that Ruger on my shoulder, I'd have been found floating down the river as a result of some drunken goon's sense of fun and games.

As Dev says, it does seem like a great policy to avoid these kinds of circumstances, but there is simply no telling when and where they might occur.

May we all not be subject to those kinds of circumstances.

[eternalme]

Timmy,

Quite detailed picture you draw of the event, people can be like that at times when they are drunk and they try to vent it out on people who meant no offense at all.
In your case you just happened to be there and these guys thought about teaching you a lesson for no apparent reason.
I have a similar event to share,
It was a very particular dark December night, when I choose to walk to my hotel from my office in Newbury , it must have been about 8pm and to my unconscious mind that was not too late to be worrying.
The road towards the hotel ran parallel to a farm with no marked boundaries, so instead of walking on the pavement which was slippery due to presence of snow and mist I decided to take a detour and started walking by the boundary of the farm which was covered with fallen leaves and dead grass to ease up my stroll.
I had barely walked about 5 minutes when a truck pulled by on the other side of the road and some hoodies jumped out of the back , sticks flashing and 1/2 pint beer bottles in hands.
The frisked me, called me 'paki', and asked me about my business in their country, this was sometime after the London bombings, so I understood the general anger and I tried to convince them politely that I come from India and meant no harm to the country or the people.
Two of them tried to drag me to the truck, at this time I warned them that I might fight back in self defense, though I was told by my local contact that fighting back in defense may also land me in police custody, if there are no eyewitness supporting my cause.
There being only five of them around it was clear that I was having no alibi except my own self and was left with two options.One being letting them have the better of their justice and suffer what all they thought a "Paki" should have or fight back.
I plucked the stick off a shorty and let the other have my lappy bag land on his face, the other two seemed more sober due to the affect of alcohol, they were finding it tough to pull their feet even.
So it was three goons vs me, while one was behind the wheels shouting "owe - owe you paki, ####", the other two just darted at me, it was tough to fight with them with all the thought of law and police etc coming to my mind.
I don't recall much about what actually took place but in the end of 10 or 15 seconds I was left with a severely swollen wrist, a torn laptopbag, two goons already in the back seats and the other two staggering to reach the truck while the goon behind the wheels was now blowing horn like a mad man.
At this point of time I realized if some cops happen to land up on the scene I would be the one seen as a villain with a stick in my hand, hence I threw it towards the farm and stood there firm awaiting next assault or God's angels.
About 2 or three seconds passed and when the wounded guy took his seat in the truck (discovery) , they simply drove off calling me names and daring me to stay where I was.
once their tail light was no more visible, I took off to my office while keeping a look back at my tracks.
And called a cab from the office and explained the situation, just in case the goons were waiting for me. They suggested that I should ask for the cops first and when the matter is with the cops they would be more than happy to send the cab.
The cops were more than helpful but very tactful as well, they made sure that I didn't file a report as "That may require you to recognize the offenders and a witness to prove that what you did to them was in self defense", as If I was a Bruce lee incarnation capable of stopping and giving #### to four people.
No need to say that I never ventured out like that ever past 5 o'clock.
That was the day when I dropped my plans to stay in UK any more and when the project permitted I moved out of there.
I don't mean to say that this kind of things don't happen in India, but In India I stand a better chance to defend my cause at least with out being branded.

The argument may go on and on, but in the end the fact remains that there is a need to defend oneself in such situations instead of letting the other have the better of you.
In my case I did something and the marshal arts saved my a## that day, but I think that i was lucky that they were drunk and were simply novice in street fighting.

Regards

[Subal das]

guys, who carry a gun, need to learn how to protect them self against knife attacks. In most situations untrained (untrained against knife attack) person with gun will be killed by skilled knife fighter. danger is that, if you carry a gun, you may feel all right and safe, and that may play against in real life. In most urban kind of conflict is a close combat, person caring a gun (in most situations) will have no time to deploy it, once confronted with attacker armed with knife.

I think it may be interesting discussion gun vs knife.

[nagarifle]

ladies and gentleman of the forum

i would like to impart to you first rule of unarmed combat.

Rule one: get armed

[goodboy_mentor]

Reflexes, intuition and instant decisions play a very big role. Just carrying a gun or any weapon is no insurance of safety. Even someone without any knife etc. can snatch the gun from a person and use it . Basically it is not a mathematical equation of gun verses knife, it is who does what and when.

[Rottmeister]

Thirdly, when you have a wife, girlfriend, sister etc in tow forget being macho. Your job is to eliminate all risk and not charge like a bull and have a tire iron wrapped around your skull. If this happens imagine what the uglies will do to those you were accompanying.

Dev, it happened in Kolkata some 8 years back. A man (a 6ft 2 inch hunk) was returning from the night show of a movie ("Kaho na...Pyaar Haay", which was running at Menoka) with his sister and wife. They were stopped by a bunch (4 of them in an Ambassador and nothing but desi daru bottles in their hands) who gave him the choice of parting with either of the two ladies. This guy parted with his wife, whose body was found at the "Dhapa", the dumping ground of the city, the next morning.

In your opinion, he did the right thing.

-- Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:04 --

ladies and gentleman of the forum

i would like to impart to you first rule of unarmed combat.

Rule one: get armed

Rule 2: Learn how to use it properly.

Rule 3: Learn the laws on self defense and have the guts to use them both when required.

Rule 4: Take no shit.

Rule 5: Don't get paranoid and lose control over an adverse situation.

Remember, you can do a lot more with a gun and kind words rather than with kind words alone (u all are familiar to this quote).

-- Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:11 --

Even someone without any knife etc. can snatch the gun from a person and use it . Basically it is not a mathematical equation of gun verses knife, it is who does what and when.

That's why, it's always better to chain a gun to the holster. The day I buy one, I shall do the same.

-- Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:13 --

If you can walk away... or run... do so please.
If not...

Isn't it something the modern population is famous for? Sorry, but I prefer being hit on the chest rather than on my back.

[Sakobav]

Rottlord

No sure which one of the western movies which had this prudent advice "Those who fight and run away live to fight another day.." Dev, timmy and Moa are giving very practical advice always keep the legal aspect in mind. The cops are the same throughout the world why have another FIR which then has to be followed up and shows up on record. Always remember India is know for lengthy legal process -- justice delayed is justice denied..

Eternalme

That was a close call an acquaintance of mine lost his eye to an attack by skin heads. Its sad experience because not all of people are the same and point being every nation has its set of crazies and such sic situations where members of certain creed and culture are targeted very rampant in India itself.

Best

[Rottmeister]

Rottlord

No sure which one of the western movies which had this prudent advice "Those who fight and run away live to fight another day.." Dev, timmy and Moa are giving very practical advice always keep the legal aspect in mind. The cops are the same throughout the world why have another FIR which then has to be followed up and shows up on record. Always remember India is know for lengthy legal process -- justice delayed is justice denied..

Of course, in a country where the sole purpose behind marriage is - "Putrarthey Kriyaatey vaaryaa", this is what we must expect. Tell me Grewaal saab, whom shall this man fight for if he really fights back another day? I'm sorry to ask you this and may God forbid such incidences with everyone in this world, what would have been your step of action had u been in a similar position? As for me, I would have eviscerated the B*****d who would dare his eyes upon my woman, my mother or my sister or anyone innocent. I'm not boasting, but last year, when I had an attempt on my life, I didn't show my back. We (my rottie and I) fought back and all eight of them disappeared. Even the neighborhood guy who tried poisoning my dog last week is now in the hospital; I belted him quite well and allowed my rottie to have a piece of him. If I had a gun, I would have shot him on both of his knees. I'm sorry, but I'm very much possessive about the ones I love. I can take a thousand insults, but not any insult towards my own people. Today, I'm being called at the local PS and I'm gonna come out of that dingy place with my head held high.

We Indians want everyone to be meek and docile and lack courage when it's required the most. And why are u hell bent on contradicting me and not the others who spoke in the same line? Am I the easy prey?

[dev]

Thirdly, when you have a wife, girlfriend, sister etc in tow forget being macho. Your job is to eliminate all risk and not charge like a bull and have a tire iron wrapped around your skull. If this happens imagine what the uglies will do to those you were accompanying.

Dev, it happened in Kolkata some 8 years back. A man (a 6ft 2 inch hunk) was returning from the night show of a movie ("Kaho na...Pyaar Haay", which was running at Menoka) with his sister and wife. They were stopped by a bunch (4 of them in an Ambassador and nothing but desi daru bottles in their hands) who gave him the choice of parting with either of the two ladies. This guy parted with his wife, whose body was found at the "Dhapa", the dumping ground of the city, the next morning.

In your opinion, he did the right thing.

Rottlord till now all that I have read from you is nothing but hot air. My answer was for most of the general applications where commonsense helps. Unfortunately, in your desire to blow your trumpet you only seem to get one part of the answer. You were lucky that your thuggery did not land you in legal trouble. I have fought more bouts than you have seen in state and national level tae kwon do competitions, against well trained opponents not against some out of shape neighbour or drunk. Your pada thuggery isn't what IFG is about. Do you even have a firearm license or the ability to handle a firearm that you always try to come across as a cheap mithun imitation?

Dev

[Rottmeister]

Dev, I love my dog and self a bit too much; I don't mind that thuggery part even a bit. For your Tae-Kwon-do contests, you have a referee; unfortunately, in street fights and life attempts, a person is his own judge. You called me Mithun-style imitation; well, I don't mind that even, since it served my purpose.


Regarding owning and using a firearm: I don't have a gun license yet, but remember one thing, owning a gun doesn't make you 100% armed just like owning a violin alone doesn't make you a 100% musician. If my own life or the life of a beloved is at stake, I won't mind using it for good. And yes, though I started quite late with firearms (solely because I didn't know something as colossal as IFG exists; Long Live IFG), I've been using air-weapons since childhood.

I know IFG is not for discussing Mithun-style gimmicks, but well, neither must it promote cowardice. Apologies if my hot-air has dried up a lot of moss.

-- Tue Sep 15, 2009 15:29 --

BTW, I'm back from the PS; the inspector is a dog-lover as well and quite an old gentleman. Thanks to him, for he considered the entire case in a very just manner. You see, when you stand up against something wrong, the world follows.

-- Tue Sep 15, 2009 15:31 --

But Dev, you didn't comment on the incident I described.

[dev]

Dev, I love my dog and self a bit too much; I don't mind that thuggery part even a bit. For your Tae-Kwon-do contests, you have a referee; unfortunately, in street fights and life attempts, a person is his own judge. You called me Mithun-style imitation; well, I don't mind that even, since it served my purpose.


Regarding owning and using a firearm: I don't have a gun license yet, but remember one thing, owning a gun doesn't make you 100% armed just like owning a violin alone doesn't make you a 100% musician. If my own life or the life of a beloved is at stake, I won't mind using it for good. And yes, though I started quite late with firearms (solely because I didn't know something as colossal as IFG exists; Long Live IFG), I've been using air-weapons since childhood.

I know IFG is not for discussing Mithun-style gimmicks, but well, neither must it promote cowardice. Apologies if my hot-air has dried up a lot of moss.

-- Tue Sep 15, 2009 15:29 --
ROTTLORD,


BTW, I'm back from the PS; the inspector is a dog-lover as well and quite an old gentleman. Thanks to him, for he considered the entire case in a very just manner. You see, when you stand up against something wrong, the world follows.

-- Tue Sep 15, 2009 15:31 --

But Dev, you didn't comment on the incident I described.

You will keep on trying to justify your bravado so I shall only answer this one time. I don't just own a firearm , i also compete in ISSF matches so you could say that I know how to play the violin. Tae kwon do has refrees but the match is full contact and knock outs are common. Knowing when to fight and not to isn't promoting cowardice. You have gotten away with breaking the law but I won't let you boast about it here. So be informed that you are suspended.
I hope it will give you time to consider something... was Mahatma Gandhi a coward?

Regards,

Dev

[nagarifle]

score so far one lov to both
next round begins soon

ah yes i am a self appointed referee