Chat with Mumbai Police Comissioner 'BAN on Import Firearms'

[Rottmeister]

Rottlord,
I do not think Sujay is criticising you or attacking your post.He was supplementing what you have said. Posters are banned from attacking the posters not the content.You can criticise all you want in civilised terms but not the poster.

Best-
Vikram

Vikram,

I dare not say that Sujay criticised because he didn't, but I wanted it that way because that's how things are learned better. But everything aside, the points he mentioned are very valid ones and I thank him heartily for arranging the order of questions. Shall bring them up when I log in to the same chat coming week. But, it shall be better if a couple more members can join me.

[goodboy_mentor]

All these firearm import restrictions are due to lack of clear thinking on part of ministers/bureaucrats. They cannot differentiate between legal "import" and illegal "smuggling". Terrorists are not so stupid to legally "import" firearms, they "smuggle" firearms with impunity regardless of the law.

As rightly mentioned in the post, it is the mandarins at Delhi responsible for formulating meaningless policies.

I would earnestly request each one of you to popularize IFG among the people you know. The more people we have the better it is. Unless RKBA is a popular concept among masses, politicians are not going to budge, because all they care is about "votes" and only "votes"

A PIL under Article 226 seems to be the practical course of action at the moment to remove firearms import ban, along with lot of media attention.

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms .... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants. They serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be
attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

- Thomas Jefferson

[gunrunner]

Instead of squabling here like fisherfolk,I would rather suggest that
(1)We start a corpus fund by gunlovers,for gunlovers.
(2)Hire Ram Jethmalani/any other lawyer to pettition the supreme court regarding licences.
(3)Again pettition the court to lift the ban on arms import.
(4)Only language the police understand is the language spoken by the men in black
i.e. lawyers and judges.

Infact court is the only entity the police are afraid of.

Relatives friends chamchas of politicos and policeman are granted licences, its we taxpayers who suffer the stigma and insult of "application rejected"

Anybody else to stand up for your fundamental right.

Whatever contribution is decided, count me in as the first one.

Mods please take over from here.

[Vikram]

Gunrunner,

Thanks for the suggestions and your kind offer to contribute and help the cause.Only,please do not reduce the discussion and debate here to squabbling.That is a bit unkind.We are here for the same cause and discussions is the only way we learn from each other and what each of us thinks.

Best-
Vikram

[gunrunner]

Agreed Vikram,this has been going on for a long time isnt it.Only discussions are of no use.They take us nowhere.
All we need is a Big Step for Gun lovers,which would be,the formation of an association or action committe to fight for our basic fundamental right.Initially On a state level ,later we can go to national level.
My bet, a single supreme court pettition would shake up the system by its b***s.
I know people who cant even read and write properly having licences issued to them simply bcause they were on good terms with licensing authortiy.They have no business owning a firearm.
Lifting the BAN on weapon import is secondary.
Getting the dept or whatever to issue licences freely is of prime importance.

You pay 5lacs and the licence is yours.Irrespective wether you have the financials or no.

Lets rope in the TGG guys also to give a collective thurst to the initiative.Differences apart.

When do we start???
Or do we still keep talking.

[Rottmeister]

They cannot differentiate between legal "import" and illegal "smuggling".

BRAVO, ; this single point, if raised in the court, shall make us the winners.

[Sujay]

Lets rope in the TGG guys also to give a collective thurst to the initiative.Differences apart.

When do we start???
Or do we still keep talking.

Being a new member , you are not aware of the antics of the TGG guys , else you would not have suggested this.

-- Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:51 pm --

T

BRAVO, this single point, if raised in the court, shall make us the winners.

No, it would lead us to nowhere. You always are hyperactive and suggest that members of this forum are loath to act and merely filing a PIL etc would alter the firearm import laws. I am clarifying why it won't.

Government of India can make any law prohibiting/allowing anything ; provided it does not violate the constitution.

There is nothing in the Constitution of India which guarantees us the possession of imported firearms. For that matter even RKBA.

Court will merely examine whether the law/rule violates the constitution. In this case, it does not and the case will be dismissed.

Also, for a PIL, you need to substantiate how 'public is affected at large' by this import restriction ? It is very easy for the courts to infer otherwise because the majority of Indian citizens are not interested in firearms, but that's a different issue.

The issues you can challenge in courts is wrong implementation of law. Something like 'my licence has been rejected on unjust grounds etc.' Courts ( Judiciary) are for overseeing the enactment of laws as per constitution and correct implementation of law and not to play the role of Parliament

[Rottmeister]

For that matter even RKBA.

I have serious doubts on this part of your post.

[Sujay]

For that matter even RKBA.

I have serious doubts on this part of your post.

Wake Up , Sweet Dreams Else nightmare impending !

[Rottmeister]

Sujay, I think the Indian Constitution mentions RKBA; what do the rest of the knowledgeable people have to say about it?

[amk]

I wholeheartedly agree with Sujay, on every single point. Except I don't know for sure what the constitution says on RKBA but think it doesn't explicitly mention RKBA. The right to life clause is normally used by every Tom, Dick and Harry to highlight any grievance against the state; perhaps you could use that but I think that will be thrown out too with costs.

Just resign to your fate fellas; we are %^@*ed, unless we educate the public and bring a big number on our side we are not going anywhere with this.

[Rottmeister]

AMK, our prime concern was lifting the ban on import; if you are registered with a NRAI affiliated shooting club, then why shouldn't you be allowed to import a Browning Buckmark or something similar? Or, why a licensed firearm owner with clean backgrounds shall be stopped from doing so?

-- Tue Sep 08, 2009 17:24 --

Who is a pessimist? One who "no"-s too much.

-- Tue Sep 08, 2009 17:29 --

Just resign to your fate fellas; we are %^@*ed, unless we educate the public and bring a big number on our side we are not going anywhere with this.

That's what we Indians are doing since eternity; if a riot breaks out, we pray to God to save us; if a terrorist attack occurs, we thank God for being lucky enough to escape the blasts and the bullets. One thing none understands is: "God helps him who helps himself." Enough relying on fate; it's time to TEMPT it.

[ravi.sharma]

Hi Gunrunner,

Agreed Vikram,this has been going on for a long time isnt it.Only discussions are of no use.They take us nowhere.
All we need is a Big Step for Gun lovers,which would be,the formation of an association or action committe to fight for our basic fundamental right.Initially On a state level ,later we can go to national level.
My bet, a single supreme court pettition would shake up the system by its b***s.
I know people who cant even read and write properly having licences issued to them simply bcause they were on good terms with licensing authortiy.They have no business owning a firearm.
Lifting the BAN on weapon import is secondary.
Getting the dept or whatever to issue licences freely is of prime importance.

You pay 5lacs and the licence is yours.Irrespective wether you have the financials or no.

Lets rope in the TGG guys also to give a collective thurst to the initiative.Differences apart.

When do we start???
Or do we still keep talking.

Your Agression and Anger is very obvious, the suggestion to hire a lawyer, file a PIL has been offerd at numerous occassion by different Members but has never fetched any result. I would be the other one to contribute for this aspect but do you think only 5 or 10 members contributing will lead us to our cause. We need a mass support, first not in terms of commercials, In terms of Count, the more the people to support the cause the stronger the case is. We fail at this step it self.

To take this first step, i will start a thread, which will request the members to just provide their consent to support this cause along with ease on Liecesing process without any commercial support. Lets see what the out come is


Ravi Sharma

[amk]

Just to clarify; you can pursue the import issue. I was mainly referring to the RKBA issue, that will never change.

[Rottmeister]

Hey, Ravi, consent alone isn't going to cut the cheese. We need to open a bank account or keep the money with the MOD(s) so that it can be utilized when there's a need. Donation means consent but consent is certainly not donation always.