Chat with Mumbai Police Comissioner 'BAN on Import Firearms'

[ravi.sharma]

Hello All,

Due to the constrain of space in the subject area, i wasn't able to type the entire subject, i.e., "Chat with Mumbai Police Comissioner for Lift on BAN of Import of FIRE ARMS".

Guys, we have a golden opportunity to be raise our voices in front of right person, which we have been waiting for a long time. The Mumbai police comissioner shall be available for Chat @ 16.00 hrs IST on 3rd Sep. This might be our first chance to raise our voice and get some reply or be directed to more appropriate person. I would request all the members to please make sure to login tomorrow and fight our case as a community and urge for replies. I understand that maximum are not from Mumbai, still the concept is to start the campaign irrespective of the city or state.

If some members cant login but have some valuable feed back which can be taken up in the discussion, please post in this thread. Again, i am not aware what result this shall fetch for us or is this going to be of any use. But i can see a ray of light and want to capitalize on it at the fullest.

Here i am providing the article about the comissioner and the details of the site to Login.

"Mr D Sivanandan Mumbai Police Commissioner is a very old friend of the technology world. He not only created the Mumbai Cyber Crime Cell but also the Thane Cyber Crime Cell. He is also the first Police Commissioner that that blogs on a regular basis. The technology world has had numerous interactions with him on technology issues in the past and is a ambassador for promoting technology within the police forces. He also like to interact with the youth on a regular basis and was also instrumental in making the Wi-Fi free project a roaring success.

He has just created one of the most popular police websites in the world that has a major focus on interacting with the youth in cyber space. This website site already boasts of lakhs of hits already and plans being a forerunner in showcasing newer technologies. The website URL is http://www.copconnect.in.

On Thursday, the September 3rd at 1600 hrs Mr Sivanandhan is going to start a series of interactive chats with the citizens of Mumbai. We would like you to log on to copconnect.in and interact with the Mumbai Police Commissioner. We would like you to enter into a debate with him on all aspects of policing, not just on technology. I am sure he would love to interact with you on various issues relating to policing and the city. If you know other people who would like to engage the Commissioner please forward this e-mail to them.

While visiting the site, if you would like to share your views/ideas on how to make the site garner more visitors, please send an e-mail either to Mr Sivanandhan at [email protected] or Dr Chirag Unadkat at [email protected].

See you in cyberspace on the 3rd of September at 1600 hrs".

I hope, the above literature gives the image of the person, we have a chance to interact with. He is open to techonolgy to suggestions for improvement in various fields. So one thing we can be certain of, is that, we are at least not dealing with a person, who will shove our opnions, the moment he hears it.

All the best Guys and i seriously expect, we make something out of this opportunity.


Ravi Sharma.

[winnie_the_pooh]

Ravi,

Nice of you to post this.I do not wish to rain on your parade but I would like to point out that the subject of import of firearms is out of the preview of the Commissioners office.Even if he agrees whole heartedly (I would like to see a public servant agree on an open forum that govt. policies are wrong) that the ban should be revoked,nothing will happen.

Would be better if you ask him about making licensing procedure easier,opening up a police range to lincensees or anything else that you can think off that is within his powers to implement.

No offence meant and I hope none will be taken

[ravi.sharma]

Hi Winnie,

I appreciate your views and definetly didnt feel offensive as the statement by you is correct. Though if you read my post, it is mentioned that different topics can be pulled up, which means the Procedure for Liecence as well. As you have mentioned, he might not be of much help for Import but still I presume, might be some light can be thrown up by him or some suggestions might come up.

Agian, i am trying to score in darkness, If we MISS, we have nothing to Loose (considering the current scenario) but, IF we HIT .................


Ravi Sharma.

[goodboy_mentor]

I could not help prevent myself from posting my comments at http://copconnect.in/blog/?p=16&cpage=1#comment-508

Sir,

First of all I would like to thank you for your initiative to reach out to people. Though this might not be the right blog to discuss the topic, but I found it necessary to discuss it due to compelling reasons. I was disturbed to read that Mumbai police has made issuing of Arms Licenses difficult after 26/11
(http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 908341.cms).

I cannot understand the sanity and wisdom behind it. DO THE TERRORISTS AND CRIMINALS COME TO LICENSING ATHOURITY TO GET AN ARMS LICENSE BEFORE COMMITTING A CRIME, WHEN THEY CAN GET AUTOMATIC FIREARMS WHICH ARE MUCH MORE DEADLIER AND EFFECTIVE IN ILLEGAL ARMS MARKET AT A CHEAPER RATE? How many terrorist incidents have taken place till date with “Licensed” firearms? It is only the law abiding citizens who come for applying Arms licenses. Criminals and lunatics will always get firearms regardless of the law or “Arms Licenses”. Arms licenses are given for Non Prohibited bores, whereas terrorists arm themselves with much more deadlier weapons than those that can be obtained by “Firearms Licenses”.

If you do not issue arms licenses to citizens, you are indirectly helping the terrorists/criminals because you are helping them get unarmed citizens as easy targets. Research has shown, criminals always go for easy targets. These kind of mass killings only take place where population is unarmed, terrorists first target the police as they are
in uniform(and police is the first to run from the scene exactly because of this. We have all seen on TV, what the policemen did at CSTrailway station.) Sebastian D’Souza a news photographer who witnessed the entire scene, and also took the photos that were flashed in most newspapers around the world, had this to say:

“There were armed policemen hiding all around the station but none of them did anything. At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, “Shoot them, they’re sitting ducks!” but they just didn’t shoot back. I told some policemen the gunmen had moved towards the rear of the station but they refused to follow them. What is the point if having policemen with guns if they refuse to use them? I ONLY WISH I HAD GUN RATHER THAN A CAMERA.”

Had there been few armed citizens they would have killed these criminals much before the the police killed them. This has happend in USA in states where ctizens are allowed to carry firearms. Mass killings take place only in those states in USA, where citizens are not allowed to carry firearms.

Unarmed populations are just serfs to the state.Crime under Saddam’s Iraq was extremely low. All households were
encouraged to have at least two AK-47’s in their home. No off-the-street crook would risk instigating a gun-fight so he could steal a TV.

It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out that armed citizens can and will combat armed criminals. 99% of criminals wouldn’t dare commit violent crimes if everyone were armed. And no nation with a fully armed
and trained populace could be conquered.

Gun banning is absolutely retarded.

Just go through these links:

http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5316
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/a ... rcID=40567

Regards
GBM

[Rottmeister]

Ain't no more the topic being viewable at the blog; I have a song by YJ Malmsteen dedicated for the Steel Structure :

"Blind, leading the blind; no one sees, the 7th sign."

[Rottmeister]

What?!? Just four of us interested in the topic? Well, my experience was this CP setting himself on a flight mode. Following are the details of the conv.

16:05:09 Shanto: Sir, as one of the members of IFG and a shooting sports enthusiast, I would like to put forth a few questions, with your prior permission.

16:09:21 Shanto: Mr. Sivanandan, Sir, my queries are regarding the licensing issues and the import ban that was initiated in 1986.

16:14:17 Sivanandhan: SHANTO ,IMPORT BAN ON WEAPONS CAME INTO BEING AFTER THE PUNJAB TERRORISM. SINCE THEN IT IS CONTINUING DUE TO INTERNAL SECURITY ISSUES.

16:17:44 Shanto: Sir, but if shooting sports enthusiasts, who are registered with NRAI directly or with a nrai affiliated club import them, it shall all be under proper registrations. Cann't the rule be amended?

16:51:33 Shanto: Sir, the goons and criminals, despite the ban on the import get their hands on foreigh-made weapons, whereas us, the law abiding, rational and educated citizens have to trust our luck; I'm sorry to say, it's the licensing department who are also to be blamed for conveying wrong information and making the already stringent policies tighter. And most of the time, the police is not present at the place when a crime is taking place. Sir, last year I faced a life threat from a very powerful builder who wanted my residence to build a multistorey. There were no police at the site of crime and later on, they refused taking my complaint. Don't you think I have a right do defend myself?

16:52:16 Shanto: Donn't you think it's time now for the laws to be amended?

16:53:31 Shanto: There had been several articles by eminent journalists that were published after the 26/11 incident; all of them spoke about the event could have been avoided if it was an armed society. I would like to have your opinion on this.

At this point, he mentioned: "We are always there when a crime is happening and there would have been more deaths if the common people were armed. So let people stay unarmed and let us do our jobs" and then he logged off. Sorry, I didn't have the time to copy the statement.

[cottage cheese]

What?!? Just four of us interested in the topic? Well, my experience was this CP setting himself on a flight mode. Following are the details of the conv.

16:05:09 Shanto: Sir, as one of the members of IFG and a shooting sports enthusiast, I would like to put forth a few questions, with your prior permission.

16:09:21 Shanto: Mr. Sivanandan, Sir, my queries are regarding the licensing issues and the import ban that was initiated in 1986.

16:14:17 Sivanandhan: SHANTO ,IMPORT BAN ON WEAPONS CAME INTO BEING AFTER THE PUNJAB TERRORISM. SINCE THEN IT IS CONTINUING DUE TO INTERNAL SECURITY ISSUES.

16:17:44 Shanto: Sir, but if shooting sports enthusiasts, who are registered with NRAI directly or with a nrai affiliated club import them, it shall all be under proper registrations. Cann't the rule be amended?

16:51:33 Shanto: Sir, the goons and criminals, despite the ban on the import get their hands on foreigh-made weapons, whereas us, the law abiding, rational and educated citizens have to trust our luck; I'm sorry to say, it's the licensing department who are also to be blamed for conveying wrong information and making the already stringent policies tighter. And most of the time, the police is not present at the place when a crime is taking place. Sir, last year I faced a life threat from a very powerful builder who wanted my residence to build a multistorey. There were no police at the site of crime and later on, they refused taking my complaint. Don't you think I have a right do defend myself?

16:52:16 Shanto: Donn't you think it's time now for the laws to be amended?

16:53:31 Shanto: There had been several articles by eminent journalists that were published after the 26/11 incident; all of them spoke about the event could have been avoided if it was an armed society. I would like to have your opinion on this.

At this point, he mentioned: "We are always there when a crime is happening and there would have been more deaths if the common people were armed. So let people stay unarmed and let us do our jobs" and then he logged off. Sorry, I didn't have the time to copy the statement.

Quite a escapist eh?...simply logged out.

I don't think the poor chap had the chance to gather his wits...no wonder he logged off with "We are always there when a crime is happening and there would have been more deaths if the common people were armed. So let people stay unarmed and let us do our jobs"

And this is about the most singularly lame and stupid establishment statement I've heard in a while.

Next time he logs on, ask him to explain carefully and in detail how "there would have been more deaths if the common people were armed"? .... maybe they want the criminals and terrorists alive... new rules of engagement. In any case the cops won't take kindly to any one breaking their monopoly in killings...(?)

Firstly, No - they are most often never there when a crime is happening. This is the basic rule of crime- Hit where there are no cops likely to be around or to react. Likewise, virtually all police action is more or less reaction....and may I add- knee jerk.

Secondly, "common people", in the standard case of establishment mentality, would mean anyone non-governmental .... that about sums up the elitist, exclusive muckscrub mind set of the establishment. Anyone other than government is thrash. He should know many civilians, but for the unfair and ridiculous restrictions and laws, would be better conditioned and motivated to stand their ground than an average desi-cop. They'll then go on and blather about the training that a cop has...which we civilians apparently don't. Hah! What training? The standard of training is abysmal and most cops have in a few years watered down into the slobs that we see every day. Need I say, most civilians would also be more intelligent.

"So let people stay unarmed and let us do our jobs"

Must have been gasping for words... Ok we'll all obediently sit around when another 26/11 happens.... rest assured they'll do their jobs...with the establishments' ultimate answer to terror- The MP5 and Glock.

Of course all our noise will mean nothing to these folks. They are smugly reassured that they have the rotting superstructure of the establishment to support them. In simple words- they are convinced they know what's best.

To me the officer in question seems to be the establishments blue-eyed-boy.... perfect Monday morning cop nothing else.

Additionally, all that cyber-fluff like blogs and stuff won't be worth a pellet of goat-poop when the next batch of terrorists(Class of 2009?) are enthusiastically randomly hosing me and my family down with their AKs.

[Rottmeister]

CC, u missed out on a point. He was answering an individual and not an entire group. It is easier dodging past the queries that way; why don't you log in on the 11th at 4 pm through the copconnect chat? Unless there are greater number of people addressing the issue, they (Please never again use this language on the boards.Apart from being inappropriate,you would end up hurting the cause you are trying to serve.Thanks-Moderator) are never going to listen up. I personally thank Ravi ; I took the first step and now, the rest of IFG must follow. Wake Up!

And one more thing: If any among the IFG community has access to pro-gun politicians, let him present a copy of CC's and mine postings to them; also, the fact that post to the Copconnect blog has been removed. I'm sure that shall be the first strike to break the ice. Eminent IFG-ans, please express your views on this action.

[Sujay]

So at least somebody ( Police/Babus etc) actually confirms that the import of firearms was banned to deny terrorists access to firearms and owing to the success of that policy, it is continued indefinitely to deny access to firearms to all other would be/ present terrorists as well !

But Rottlord forgot to ask him --

Sir,

1) Do you have any data how many Babbbar Khalsa/KCF guys were importing rifles/shotguns/handguns against license to start a killing spree ?

2) How come present day terrorists are armed with sophisticated firearms ( all imported ) ? Remember, your ban is in place.

3) Why import of small & medium calibre rifles, handguns are banned when terrorists always use assault rifles and explosives ?

Even a senior police officer is not free of paranoia and casting apprehension on a particular community !

[Rottmeister]

Hi Sujay! I should have, indeed; however, if you remember the age-old story on the sticks - collectively and individually, we may go a long distance. Besides, I did not have the time; he logged out before I could throw another question at him. But I appreciate; it's only if people put in their thoughts, we can deal with a situation like this.

P.S. Sujay, I'd have appreciated more if you had been direct instead of "...Rottlord forgot to ask".

To think, to speak and to shoot straight....wonder why posters are banned from criticising each other's actions directly.

[cottage cheese]

One thing we need to bear in mind is we are dealing with only the Commissioner of Mumbai- his domain ends where Mumbai ends. Just a tiny cog in the mammoth establishment.

As such, niggling the poor fellow( as sincere as he is in other areas) about Central Government idiocy is misdirected energy.

The ones we need to tar are the mandarins up in Delhi.

Participation in the chat may end up only be an energetic exercise in being heard- nothing more.

Of course, every little bit helps so don't consider this as discouraging

[Rottmeister]

Not at all, CC; unless we confront reality and positive criticism with an open heart, we can't go any farther. But these couple of comments from the CP may end up as being the most powerful tool for us to voice our opinions. A few substantial ones have been raised by and Sujay; looking forward to others to put in their two cents as well. And please, let this spree not die an early death like it happened with so many issues earlier.

And one more thing: If any among the IFG community has access to pro-gun politicians, let him present a copy of CC's and mine postings to them; also, the fact that post to the Copconnect blog has been removed. I'm sure that shall be the first strike to break the ice. Eminent IFG-ans, please express your views on this action.

[Vikram]

Thanks gentlemen for what you have been doing.That's a typical response and there is little to add in terms of content/arguments to what has already been said. What I can only say is that we need to be very clear and cautious on what we say and how we say and whom we address.We are about convincing, persuasion,garnering support,winning people over etc. I am not saying any of you did so, but overly aggressive approach will only make people defensive,rigid and argumentative which does not help anyone.

The CP of Mumbai does not make the law.But, he can be persuaded to implement the licensing procedure fairly and transparently.The law makers,i.e the MPs and MLAs , need to be persuaded about changing the law.


Rottlord,

I do not think Sujay is criticising you or attacking your post.He was supplementing what you have said. Posters are banned from attacking the posters not the content.You can criticise all you want in civilised terms but not the poster.

Best-
Vikram

[cottage cheese]

We are about convincing, persuasion,garnering support,winning people over etc. I am not saying any of you did so, but overly aggressive approach will only make people defensive,rigid and argumentative which does not help anyone.

Well Viks.... to be honest... I am responsible for a lot of needless angry language. Sorry about that!

It's just the wood headed stupidity of the establishment that angers me no end. I get into a chat with the CP...he'll probably stop all licensing in Mumbai!

The CP of Mumbai does not make the law.But, he can be persuaded to implement the licensing procedure fairly and transparently.The law makers,i.e the MPs and MLAs , need to be persuaded about changing the law.

A relaxation in arms licensing ought to be compensated by better and fair police background checks, free from manipulation or abuse. One of the many reasons for stingy issuance of license is, I believe, not so efficient police verification that's open to abuse and manipulation- It's also an indirect admission of the establishments general failure or inability to have more efficient policing....nothing concrete to the debate... just an incidental brain fart I had momentarily.

regards,
cc

[ravi.sharma]

Hello Everyone,

First of all, I am glad to say that i am really happy,some of the memebers have started acting on this post. The response till 3rd of Sep was only from Winnie and no one else, which to be very honest was very disheartning, I understand that members would not have logged in but was surprised that it was viewed by almost 135 people and repsonse from one only.

A very good and informative query put by you in the Blog, would have never been able to post so much of details myself. As always, Love your work and attitude towards pursuing things, if you could P.M your number, i would like to meet you the next time i am in Delhi. Sorry, that your Blog has been taken out

Rottlord: I shall definetly be with you on 11th @ 4.00 p.m and hope we get a good slot to corner him.

One thing we need to bear in mind is we are dealing with only the Commissioner of Mumbai- his domain ends where Mumbai ends. Just a tiny cog in the mammoth establishment.

As such, niggling the poor fellow( as sincere as he is in other areas) about Central Government idiocy is misdirected energy.

The ones we need to tar are the mandarins up in Delhi.

Participation in the chat may end up only be an energetic exercise in being heard- nothing more.

Of course, every little bit helps so don't consider this as discouraging

Hi Cottage Cheese: You are very right in saying that we are dealing with CP of Mumbai only and he might be a tiny cog in the Mammoth establishment but at least we have some one to listen to us in a open forum, some one we can push as a community, as Rottlord has rightly mentioned, he was able to escape because he was tackling one individual and not a group. Please try and understand one thing, he cannot stop logging in due to the Rules set by him so why not make use of it. Again you are right that we might not be heard. The question is till when can they avoid us? The fight for Independce was not started through out the Nation, it started from one place and spread over the Nation. The point I am trying to make here is to fight for the Cause we all beleive in and not throwing the towel until we have fought till our last breath. No offense meant, I entirely respect your views, though i would still love to see you particpate and help us with your knowledge. A very old Proverb: (United we stand, Divided we fall).

I request this to each and every member, who believes in this Cause to come and support us on 11th Sep @ 4.00 p.m.

Hi Sujay: This is what we are looking at, people with good presence of Mind and to throw in the questions that help our cause but as Rottlord suggested it cant be done alone. You need to participate.

Thanks gentlemen for what you have been doing.That's a typical response and there is little to add in terms of content/arguments to what has already been said. What I can only say is that we need to be very clear and cautious on what we say and how we say and whom we address.We are about convincing, persuasion,garnering support,winning people over etc. I am not saying any of you did so, but overly aggressive approach will only make people defensive,rigid and argumentative which does not help anyone.

Hi Vikram: Absolutely right, we need to be cautious at our approach getting someone in to argument in a displeasaing way will lead us no where. Why dont we use this post, to make a list of the points, we need to raise on 11th sep.

Once again, we have time on our Hand, Members please Contribute.


Ravi Sharma.