A pretty Indian girl with her guns

[xl_target]

Hey, very nice article, Timmy.
I didn't realize that they made so many of them and for so long.
$19.50 for a standard rifle. OOOOH!
Though, I'm sure that was a significant amount of money back then.

[TwoRivers]

Wow, Two Rivers, you're right: I certainly never noticed that this picture on wikipedia was reversed: (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 3_open.JPG) and that it was actually the left side of this Winchester 1873.

You have great eyes for detail and great sleuthing powers!

But please, for the rest of us, tell us the expert secret that you used to determine that this picture is of the left side of a Winchester 1873. I am anxiously waiting to hear what detail I have missed! Please don't hold out on us, OK?

Timmy, if I told you, you probably would dispute it anyway. But no, no expertise or great sleuthing powers required. Just open eyes and a basic knowledge of Winchester lever actions.

This story may give you a clue: Sherlock Holmes and Doctor Watson were camping in the Scottish Highlands when Holmes awoke and noticed the starry sky above. Elbowing Watson to wake him, he said, "Watson, look up and tell me what you perceive". After a moment, Watson answered, "I perceive a million stars, and thousands of constellations. I perceive the handiwork and glory of God Almighty". Holmes replied,"Watson, you numbskull. I perceive that someone has stolen our tent."
Cheers.

[timmy]

Two Rivers, of course I dispute your claim, and I do so because you are wrong. Your post attempts to discredit my statements by claiming that I use Wikipedia and Wikipedia is bad, and your proof that Wikipedia is bad is that the photo is reversed.

Well, sir, you are wrong -- and I suspect that you know this now and are too embarrassed to admit it.

So, prove me wrong: Display for all your "basic knowledge of Winchester actions" and tell us how you know this picture http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 3_open.JPG to be reversed, or else stop claiming this sort of exclusive expert knowledge:

In case no one else noticed, the Wikipedia picture, the positive proof to originality, is a reversed negative. a picture of the left side of the rifle.

Don't tell me -- tell everyone else here so they can see your expertise and believe you.

Or do you intend to persist in casting these sorts of aspersions, without giving a shred of evidence to support them?

[TwoRivers]

Now, Timmy, take a deep breath, and calm down. What aspersions have I cast? I simply perceived that the Wiki picture was of a M73 without loading gate. And they didn't make left handled ones. Ergo, the negative is reversed. Just common sense. I would hate to think, that, among members of IFG, that would be considered "exclusive expert knowledge". Now, that would be casting aspersions. Cheers.

[timmy]

I simply perceived that the Wiki picture was of a M73 without loading gate. And they didn't make left handled ones.

You are correct, that Winchester didn't make Model 1873s with loading gates on the left hand side. But there are two clear, key identifiers here, that prove that the photograph in question is not reversed, but is actually the right hand side of the receiver.

1.

The Wikipedia picture is clearly not taken from exactly perpendicular to the action. This can be seen from the fact that the area behind that should be parallel to the line of sight in front of the access cutout is visible. Also visible is that there is a part of this area cut away for the loading gate:



(original at http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 3_open.JPG)

This dark area cut away from the loading gate (which, as we both agree, is on the right hand side) directly corresponds to the same dark area shown in this old Winchester parts diagram:



(original at http://aaa-webs.com/aaa/webs/homestead/ ... evised.jpg)

I am sure you recognize that this illustration is not reversed, since it doesn't require a mirror to read it.

2.

Now you will notice that, in the Wikipedia picture, the screw on which the level pivots is the shank, not the head side of this fastener. Please compare these to the left and right hand view of other Model 1873 Winchesters, and you will note that the head of the screw is always on the left hand side:

Right:



(original at http://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/ ... 414-03.JPG)

Left:



(original at http://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/ ... 414-04.JPG)

Another -

Right:



(original at http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/images/18 ... %20(7).jpg)

Left:



(original at http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/images/18 ... %20(3).jpg)

Another -

Right:



(original at http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/image ... cc72db.jpg)

Left:



(original at http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/image ... b14de6.jpg)

Another -

Right:



(original at http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/images/wi ... arbine.jpg)

Left:



(original at http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/images/wi ... %20(4).jpg)

Another -



(original at http://www.armchairgunshow.com/images/ot51/Win73ENG.jpg)

Now this is only 5 examples, but any google image search on "Winchester 1873" will turn up a host of antique arms collector sites, which have plenty of these rifles for sale. In other words, please don't get the idea that I will run out of examples for you very soon. But, before you tell me about how you have a number of 1873s in your collection that are threaded right-to-left, you might like to consult this Winchester 1873 exploded parts diagram, which clearly makes my point about the lever pivot screw being threaded from left to right:



(original at http://www.okiegunsmithshop.com/Win_1873.jpg)

If you have something different, you may want to contact the Winchester Museum in Cody, Wyoming and let them know.

Also, I would hope that we could avoid trickery in our exchange (particularly as I see that disingenuousness has already been employed) by asking that we not try to draw red herrings across the discussion by posting pictures of the .22 version of the 1873 Winchester, which didn't have a loading gate on either side of the receiver. None the less, I'll post a picture of it so that all may see (and note that the lever pivot screw head is on the left side of the receiver).



(original at http://oldguns.net/pix/smof4557.jpg)

I have some more of these .22 pictures, also.

Now Two Rivers, when you say:

Now, Timmy, take a deep breath, and calm down. What aspersions have I cast?

Please note that I'm quite calm, but I find it incredible that you would try to avoid admitting what you've done when you said this:

In case no one else noticed...

Aren't you assuming to know something here that's been proven to be wrong?

When you say:

Always take Wikipedia with a grain of salt. It can lead you astray.

Aren't you implying that this is what I've done by citing Wikipedia, since you've expressed these sentiments before in our exchanges and since I'm the only one that's quoted Wikipedia here? Surely, we must note that perhaps you ought to be questioned also, given your error in the face of your claims of expertise. I will let your own words judge you:

But no, no expertise or great sleuthing powers required. Just open eyes and a basic knowledge of Winchester lever actions.

The problem here is that there seems to be two trains of thought going on: I would like to share information, under the idea that nobody knows everything, and participation in this kind of forum is a way for all participants to profit. You, on the other hand, seem to make the establishment of your expertise your primary goal. You have taken offense regarding being corrected about how M98 Mauser non rotating extractors are modified to snap over a chambered round, over bolt stops of M1903 Springfields, over the markings of Berthier rifles that have been chambered for "Balle N" ammunition, and now this.

I doubt that anyone here has a problem with someone saying something and making a mistake, but nobody wants to believe wrong information, either. A simple admission or even silence, when one has been corrected, is sufficient if there is acceptance that the facts are paramount here, rather than an assumed image of expertise.

As a matter of fact, in my first post to this thread, I have made a mistake and my research into addressing your false claim of picture reversal has shown that to me. Once I'm done dealing with your sniping from the bullrushes, we can move on and return to constructive conversation, and I'll lay that info out for any who may be interested.

[TenX]

Oh man ... that was real deep

[xl_target]

I must agree with Timmy here. That photo is of the right hand side of a '73.

I took the liberty of making a mirror image of the Wikipedia image. Here it is below:


If the Wikipedia image was indeed showing the left side of the model 73 action, there should be no cutout for the loading port. As it can clearly be seen, and we know there were no south-paw models made, the wikipedia image is not a mirror image. That and some of the other indicators that I have highlighted on the image above show that it cannot be the left hand side. (Timmy mentioned the lever pivot screw)

Please compare it to the images of the left hand side of the action that Timmy posted and you will see that he is correct.

If this is settled, can we go to the next photo. The shotgun is one of those "Liberty" coach guns that, I think, were imported by Charles Daly. Maybe Timmy can give us a short history on coach guns. Guns used in the "Wild West" in real life and movies fascinate me.

[timmy]

Here is my error:

When I saw the Wikipedia picture:



I noted the two items above the trigger. As you can see from the pictures in my earlier post, the upper one has no screw head, but the lower one does. On the left side, both have a screw head.

However, on the rifle the woman is holding, there is only a single large screw behind the trigger. If you refer to the parts diagram:



You will see that there is a similar screw on the left side -- just like the rifle the woman is holding. In digging up the info I posted earlier, I found that there were 3 models of Winchester 1873. The first model according to these articles: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... ntent;col1 and http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... n16808616/ had frames made of iron; the others were made of steel. According to this web page: http://aaa-webs.com/aaa/webs/homestead/ ... ations.htm the second model has the one large screw on each side, like the rifle the woman is holding, but the rifle depicted here:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin ... emID=28749

clearly has two screws above the trigger, but a serial number that would indicate a third model. So, I'm unable to really understand, based on what I could glean, when Winchester changed these screws in the receiver. So, since my thought was that the woman's rifle had to be a replica was based on that screw, I cannot say whether she's holding a replica or the real thing.

I would like to relate an old story on this, however:

Many years ago in the small Montana town I lived in, I was a frequent visitor to one of the town's gun shops. I was pretty good friends with the proprietor, a Nebraska farm boy, and he was a real character. The gun shop was in what could charitably be termed a shack -- it had once been a bar. It had a bathroom in it and in the same building, the next door business was a barber shop that was very tiny. It had no restroom and the barber, though no gun person, was a nice guy and would come over to the gun shop to use the restroom or just talk. He had a sink in his barber shop and it turned out that the sink just drained into a pit that was dug under the building. The pit was all full of junk and old cans. A really nice place!

My friend would often sit in the back office and plink into a bullet trap with a Stevens single shot .22; when he was doing this, I could hear the little "cling" of the bullets hitting the trap as I walked down the sidewalk to enter.

But occasionally, he would fire a full power rifle in the shop to test it. After the first time I saw this, we made a little ritual of it when I was in. Usually, it would go like this: Hunting season was approaching, and a father would bring in a son to buy his first rifle. On a lower rack on the floor, there were maybe 30 or 40 old military rifles, most butchered from their issued form in some way or another. The son would eye all of these treasures, and pick one out. The dealing would go on and the boy would lay out his little wad of cash, and the dad would usually ask something like, "This gun will work OK, right?" and my friend would assure him it would, and promise to refund the money or allow another choice, if there was any problem.

Now, if I was in the shop, I would say something like, "I think the man wants to see if it works. Why don't you show him?" and my friend would turn to an old chest of drawers. Each drawer was filled to the brim with ammunition and scope mount bases and what have you -- the weight of all of this was breaking it down and it was always tough to get a draw opened -- and my friend would dig out an appropriate cartridge, put it in the chamber, and close the bolt. Then he'd move a piece of plywood on the floor, uncovering a hole about 4" in diameter that led straight to the pit below the building. He'd advise the wide-eyed dad and the wide-eyed son to cover their ears, put the barrel into the hole and put a hand against the butt, and BLAM! Off the gun would go. It was quite loud in the little shop, despite the fact that the muzzle was below the flour, and the concussion could be strongly through the feet when he fired. He'd open the bolt and smoke would drift out as the shop filled with the smell of burned gunpowder.

The dad would usually look as if he'd just visited Mars and some Martians as he went out the door. It was great fun and happened many times, except when my older son, about 9, bought his first rifle. We did the whole ritual, but I didn't walk out the door as if I'd seen Martians.

Anyway, my friend was an extremely shrewd gun trader and had quite a clientele from all over the country. Hank Williams Jr. was a regular customer, for example.

In a corner was barreled receiver from an 1873 Winchester; it as all rusty and pitted, with no parts in it. Like many other "Railbirds" who hung out there, I'd often pick it up and look at it while he conversation was going on. On the barrel, it said "King's Patent" and a date. One day, I said, "I wonder what King's Patent is?"

My friend laughed and told the story of how a fairly well known gun book author from Southern California was in the store (he shall remain nameless, since I was not there when this happened) and some other railbird had picked up the remains of the Winchester and asked the same question. My friend made some brush off comment, since he didn't know, and this famous fellow explained that King's Patent covered the loading gate on the side of the action. Then he put his hands on the counter and, leaning into my friend's face, said, "Do you know how I know? I know, because I'm an EXPERT!" and that was that.

My friend was a pretty cagey old farm boy, and several years later, this famous fellow was in the shop again, this time with his wife. As the fellow looked around, he saw that my friend had a really nice 1863 Springfield Civil War musket. My friend said that he could see that Mr. Expert really wanted that musket. He started to wheel and deal, telling my friend that he had all sorts of antiques in his motor home that he'd picked up on his trip to Montana. (These rich Californians and Texans would often come out for the summer, looking for antiques to take back and make piles of money selling back home -- all the while, giggling at the stupid hill folk they'd taken.)

Mr. Expert then said he wanted to make a deal, and that my friend must collect something he had with him.

My friend, with a totally straight poker face, said, "Well, yes, I collect art."

He said he could hear the gears turning in Mr. Expert's head as he hesitated and said, "What kind of art are you looking for?"

My friend replied, "well, I collect portraits of dead Presidents."

Mr. Expert was in the midst of pondering where he'd come by portraits of dead presidents, when his wife elbowed him in the side and laughed, "He wants money, you idiot, money!"

So that was how the famous book author met his comeuppance from the country bumpkin, and that's my story about the 1873 Winchester.

Oh, on this little search, I also learned about Trail Boss powder, used for loading rounds for Cowboy Action shooting. It is meant for light loads, which I like to shoot out of my .38 Specials, and it is supposed to deliver very consistent performance. So, I will pick some up the next time I'm at Cabela's and give it a try.

[xl_target]

So, since my thought was that the woman's rifle had to be a replica was based on that screw, I cannot say whether she's holding a replica or the real thing.

You weren't wrong. That is an Uberti.

[chouhan107]

no doubt,both are really undescribed beauties....

[Oleg Volk]

More Danica photos: http://olegvolk.livejournal.com/764541.html

[kanwar76]

Impressive Oleg,

Thanks for posting.

-Inder

[Oleg Volk]

357 Magnum Coonan auto pistol


9mm HK P7PSP


12ga shotgun


Another 12ga shotgun

[kanwar76]

She is one lucky girl, get to shoot all those guns

-Inder

[Oleg Volk]

She's lucky that she is her father's daughter. He (and his wife) raised an absolutely amazing lady who is confident, intelligent, diligent, pretty (ok, that's just luck) and well capable of defending herself. She carried a Sig 225 (9mm) and knows how to use it to effect.