Side arm of Indian Armed forces

[dev]

Hi Mehul,

I shot the 92F in the range ages ago in Ohio somewhere. It swallowed all ammo without a glitch and shot slightly larger groups than the glock which we also shot. Are you saying that the pistol is lousy or the 9mm caliber?

I recenly checked out a cops revolver here. It was a Ruger service six, not the security six that I liked cause it also shot 357 mags. This one was strangely marked 380 but the bullets the guy had were strange looking 38 caliber bullets that were longer than a baby 9mm.

But ofcourse I got excited thinking of the civilian possibilities of a revolver marked 380. Just a pipe dream I know cause there will always be the usual red tape etc.


Regards,

Dev

Sadly there is hardly any existance of the real 92 F in any police force or even the military. This is a fact.
TC

Having shot the Beretta 92 F, FS etc to quite some extent, I don't understand what is sad about their not being available in India. Time was when I thought I was unique in disliking them but it turns out that US soldiers serving In Iraq have been vocal about disliking them and have forced a reconsideration of the official sidearm of the US armed forces. Special Ops units went to a Heckler und Koch 45 a long time ago over here.

I hope the GoI does not decide to buy this complete piece of crap that got selected only because the Italians insisted on the US buying it in return for permitting US nuclear weapons to be based in Italy during the dying years of the cold war.

Mehul Kamdar

[mehulkamdar]

penpusher,

The 92 series had several frame failures especially because the slide was cut away and though Beretta did come up with several tricks to prevent this problem, nothing seemed to work over an extended period of time. There is a reason why the South Africans, when they licensed the 92 series, modified it to perform with a full slide and not the cut away contraption that Beretta dumped on consumers as well as the US army. The fact is that during the trials the best performing pistol turned out to be the ISG P 226 but it was political reasons that influenced the purchase of the Berettas. There have always been better handguns available - the CZ 75 is a vastly better pistol and it was available for nearly 15 years before the 95 came out - and the GoI could do much better than buy Beretta junk. As far as the performance of IOF products are concerned, I doubt they would improve until someone starts prosecuting the IOF people for treason.

Dev,

Shooting a 92 at a range on one session and using one regularly or in service are completely different matters. As I have told penpusher, the design of the 92 is prone to frame failures and it was chosen for political reasons and not because of it's inherent merits. There was no way the US could have bought the CZ at the time as Czechoslovakia was an East Bloc nation and notable firearms experts like the late Jeff Cooper were vehement about the Beretta's deficiencies and of the CZ's superiority whenthe US decision was made. Surely, it does not make sense for India to buy proven junk when it has used a far superior product in the past?

Scrap metal is scrap metal whether it is made by the IOF or offered in a somewhat better package by Beretta.

Mehul

[penpusher]

Mehul,

Is the SIG the side arm of the British Army? Regarding the slide soming off the frame of the Beretta, has this not been rectified

penpusher

[penpusher]

Dev,

Ruger made a revolver chambered for the .38 S&W for the Indian govt.These were later on distributed to the police forces all over the country.Its a vey good revolver and fun to shoot considering its weight and the almost negligible recoil of the cartridge its chambered for.

penpusher

[mehulkamdar]

penpusher,

It is not a question of the slide of the 92 Series guns coming off but of them fracturing. The silly cut away slide may be more a design for it's looks than for any other practical value. It isn't just IOF autopistols that break.

I don't know what pistol the British army uses - Grumpy would know much better than I do in this regard as he would about what I have posted here, his having been a competitive pistol shooter in the days when it was possible to be one in the UK - but the US army allows individual soldiers to carry the SIG 226 as a personal choice if they do not wish to carry the 92. It is clear that the knowledge of the 92 series' failings is widespread.

Mehul

[penpusher]

Mehul,

Was not the SIG rejected in favour of the Beretta because the Beretta was cheaper.So the American govt. will not buy the good stuff but wants the soldiers to buy it themselves.Atleast they have this option in USA.What about our jawans?

penpusher

[mehulkamdar]

penpusher,

The price differential was an excuse given at the time the selection was made, though, the fact is that the SIG was a vastly superior product that neccessarily cost more - not much more, though. The decision to select the Beretta was made, as I said, because the Italian government insisted that the US buy this pistol if it wanted to base nuclear weapons on Italian soil at the time. Beretta even assembled some M 16 A 2 rifles for the US Army at the time under a similar contract. The whole exercise was one of political expediency and not one of selecting the best product for the army.

I agree with you completely on the very positive advantage that the US soldier enjoys in being able to choose a personal sidearm if he/she does not like the service issue product. sadly, India's brave jawans do not have that option at all.

I found your information on the Ruger revolvers very interesting. Ruger do make some of the strongest revolvers ever made anywhere and for once the GoI made a good choice! The thing is that the Ruger family are in the process of selling the company and, if the Indian government or indeed an Indian entrepreneur are serious, they could acquire it and offer the company's very strong products for sale in India. Rugers may not quite be "Rolls Royce grade" in class but they are very reliable and strong guns in whatever category the company has found it fit to enter.

[eljefe]

TC-
Dev and I are not hallucinating-contrary to your marcos and SF issue, our ordinary , pot bellied UP police SI, of Noida carries a Glock-in 9mm.When asked about it, the answer was " austarlian 20 round pistol" I hope he's not stuffing the mag with 20?
I have seen Delhi Police SI carry P7M13 squeeze cockers in 2001.

major hodge podge there-like I said , poor poor gunsmith! Dev is very graphic about how he saw sidearms being issued in a delhi PS-ammo being issued by the handful, the recepient sorting out the rimmed from the rimless!
Yes, the Bharat Dynamics made HP35 clone is still popular.
Best
Axx

[TC]

I am not surprised. Pot bellied Indian policemen promising to be "for you with you, always" are capable of doing anything. About Glocks; thats precisely what i wanted to say. My shooting club uses the official firing range of the Kolkata Police against a montly rent. Its is inside the Police Training School right next to the Army area and race course. So every week I am exposed to a lot of hodge podge you are referring to....

So long...
TC

[Sakobav]

These are the pistols issued to an officer of Punjab Police Mauser Hsc, Indian HP clone and then Glock when deputed to UN duty.

I have seen Ruger revolvers in .38 being test fired and unboxed (brand new ones) by CM security staff at range. I think it was SS Barnala's posse

Rgds

NG

[penpusher]

ngrewal,

To this I would also add S&W .38 special revolver .5 shot with a concealed hammer.

penpusher

[madhy]

Friends I have done some study on this. Let me share my exprience.
Only the para commandos of the army, marcos (marine commandos), NSG, SPG and anti-terroist units of all state and central paramilitary forces are being issued Glocks --- BUT only in phases. Most state police and paramilitary units still use the GP35 or its Indian clones.

Beside the Glock, there has been some unplanned purchase of Walthers and Heckler and Koch by individual state home departments out of Central grants for modernisation. This was triggered by terrorist attacks and Naxalite problem.

Sadly there is hardly any existance of the real 92 F in any police force or even the military. This is a fact.

Infantry does not believe in arming its soldiers and even officers with handguns. I have rarely seen any officer wearing a pistol - even in Uri and Poonch- sectors I visited during unrest. Everybody carries an assault rifle.

To show you how confusing a police arsenal can look like I will give you the example of West Bengal which, in recent times has seen terrorist attacks ( the shootout at American Centre by Dawod aides), the only Tada case beside Mumbai (a huge charge of explosives took 79 lives in Kolkata in 1992) and the recent spate of violence by Naxalites, Kamtapuris and terroists crossing across Nepal and Bangladesh.

The police constables are armed with .303 enfield rifles..... which on reaching the bell mouth stage are converted to 410 muskets.

Their next fearsome weapon in Mark 1 Sten from the days of the Raj.....unstable and unserviced...

Next fear factor is IOF made clones of Sterling SMG...the carbine as they call it.

Handguns come down to .38 Webley and Scotts, Colt 1917 and for the lucky ones, Smiths of later inport.

When it comes to anti terorist units and security for the chief minister ----
the weapons change to Browning or IOF clones, Glocks, AK 47 or AK 74 of army surplus, Insas and even some 7.62 SLR.

Thats not all, there are weapons for special emergencies---- I know because I had the opportunity --- snub nose 38s and .32 Skorpion machine pistols !!!! Thats right.

Now, West Bengal is supposed to be one of the "poor" states. Think what politicians and bureaucrats in Maharashtra, Delhi, Gujarat, Andhra Pradesh might have done.

So long, feeling sleepy.

TC

Hi folks,


Sorry to introduce myself so late. I have served Indian army in 16 grenadiers & was also a part in kargil event.....

Most of the information is not reveelved by the army due to their own security & confidentiality reasons. Iam breaking some of the basic rules & regulations given to us at the time of joining the force& thats why Please dont ask my personal details.

In Army we do have surplus supply of 92F's but most of the infantry refuses to carry one with them...let it be a war or let it be a civil patrol or anything.......Only reason is that we can carry 50-100 more rounds for assault rifles or the AK's given to us in these situations along with 2 bottles of extra water instead of the 92F. You would hardly see any officer or jawan with a pistol as most of our missions require us to shoot from a range which is not at all achievable with a pistol & its very rare that we go for a combat or one on one fights....... People are reluctant to use them because we hardly get any training on pistols or handguns at the time of training, Major's think we can automatically shoot a pistol if we know how to shoot with a AK. In the war of kargil our regiment was offer to carry as much ammo we want & whatever ammo we want (Please Dont quote me anywhere outside this site for the info I am revealing) & all the officers & jawans carried 2-3 assault rifles ample of ammo & a radar communicator was given to all of us above the rank of captain. We carried these equipments & didnt even thought to carry a pistol as most of us never used it & moreover its a block when on wait to our hand when we stand & fire a AK as our hand touches it due to recoil of the AK......


total synopsis is that Army Personnels dont like to carry a side weapon but it may become compulsary in some time......

[Sakobav]

madhy

Thats interesting that IA has 92F Beretta's amazing because until your post no sightings have been posted. I cant argue much on need of sidearm other than senior officers, non combatant personnel ( signal, EME, Armored, pilots etc) should pack one. I personally would like India to either go for CZ 75 or any other good pistol in 40 mm off course after they replace INSAS. I also heard first a hand account from an officer on pros and cons of INSAS and also got a detailed feedback from a US marine who participated in India and US joint exercise in Goa.

Best and do post often

Cheers

[madhy]

madhy

Thats interesting that IA has 92F Beretta's amazing because until your post no sightings have been posted. I cant argue much on need of sidearm other than senior officers, non combatant personnel ( signal, EME, Armored, pilots etc) should pack one. I personally would like India to either go for CZ 75 or any other good pistol in 40 mm off course after they replace INSAS. I also heard first a hand account from an officer on pros and cons of INSAS and also got a detailed feedback from a US marine who participated in India and US joint exercise in Goa.

Best and do post often

Cheers

Hey,

good to know that you have some info about units in IA. Signals, EME, & pilots do carry one if they wish to when there is a situation that demands that otherwise they are always lying in the arms room of the unit & they can pick it anytime they need by just getting a "GO" from their duty officer/reporting officer. I personally do not say no to anyone coming to me for a pickup but it also depends on the officer above the personnel weather he allows or does not allows the same.

I have seen a lot of times that officers specially new recruits are reluctant to fire these hand arms because i dont know who fed it in their mind that it wud jam most of the time when they fire.If you ever ask a Rifles unit officer or any one sikh or jat or any other infantry unit they would rather go with only their assault rifle plugged with a knife & Extra ammo rather than adding a pistol. I have conducted some sessions in my unit already on 92F & their reliability but still cant get their mindset changed. Anyways the basic answer to the question is IA do have latest firearms but old mindset needs to be tackled.


Njoy life & help other's wherever you can................. IT COUNTS!!!

[marksman]

I have suddenly developed a great respect for Mr. Arun Nehru after learning he suggested CZ-75. It's the ammo that makes the difference though. We still make them with the technology that was developed prior to WW II. I get to shoot this ammo periodically and have found the performance deteriorate at a progressive rate. The 9 mm ammo doesn't feed well in Glocks and the ignorant officers blame the pistols instead. AND, please don't ever suggest 40S&W or else this too will become PB for us. I am hopeful the fire arm policy will relax some day in my life time and I shall be a proud owner of the 40S&W that day. Shot an H&K USP in the U.S. 4 yrs ago and haven't forgotten the moment since.
Marksman