When you load 20g shells in....

[Vikram]

a 12 bore gun, this is what happens.










"My gun was a special Ducks Unlimited model, with no other model, etc. attached to it. But when I looked through a Franchi catalog at the SHOT show last year, it looked like it was either an Alcione Field or Alcione Light Field. I had it ported and the forcing cones relieved by Briley. I also had a G-Squared butt stock on it. Ironically, that survived and is currently being put on my new Browning XS Skeet. It was a 20/12 combo and I was shooting it as a 12 gauge. I've been using it for Sporting Clays for about 6 months and averaging around 150 rounds each weekend. I believe I had an improved cylinder choke in the lower barrel. I was on Stand 13 of Oaktree Gun Club in Newhall, California and had already shot Stands 1-6, 14 & 15 plus 3 clays on stand 13 when the 4th shot exploded the gun. I had hit all the clays on that stand prior to this, so it is very doubtful that a wad was stuck in the barrel.
The gun was an "old Style" Franchi imported by Accurate Arms. Franchi completely redesigned the gun shortly after Benelli became the U.S. distributor. After this experience, I think I know why! Depending on how old your gun is, it's probably one of the "New Style" guns.
The shell I was shooting that day was a once fired gray AA Super Handicap. It was reloaded on a reasonably new Ponsness Warren progressive reloader using 32 grains of Long Shot, 1-1/8 oz of #8-1/2 shot, Blue Duster wad and Winchester 209 primer. The powder charge was re-checked on an electronic scale periodically throughout the entire session. If you're familiar with Long Shot, you'll know if the hull got double charged by accident, the volume of powder would make it impossible to crimp. Again, this is very unlikely the cause of the explosion.
I don't know anything about metallurgy, but looking at what is left of the receiver and barrels, it looks like they were attached with spot welds. I suspect the quality of the metal and that these welds may have fatigued over time. But I don't know. I tried to get Franchi to look into it, but less than a week after their representative received the gun they demanded I produce the hull (couldn't find any part of it) and the rest of the box of shells I was shooting. Without them, they declared the case closed.
This is why I'm trying to get the message out. I'm not looking for a lawsuit or anything. I just want people with these guns to know what happened and if the cause of the explosion can be found, so much the better".

http://www.refugeforums.com/refuge/show ... adid=68570


Be very careful with what you are shooting,folks.

Best-
Vikram

[mehulkamdar]

Vikram,

I have the original instruction book for my 1956 Browning which has a line that reads, "DO NOT PUT A 20 GAUGE SHELL IN A 12 GAUGE GUN if yopu value your gun and yourself." You can have fun reading it when you come here.

That said, Grumpy would tell you about someone who tried to destroy a Baikal gun by pushing 20 bore shells into it and then loading 12 bore shells behind the and firing the thing with a string attached to the triggers. The gun just didn't come apart. They might be crude but the Russians know a thing or two about strength in their guns.

Cheers!

Mehul

[Mark]

The shell I was shooting that day was a once fired gray AA Super Handicap. It was reloaded on a reasonably new Ponsness Warren progressive reloader using 32 grains of Long Shot, 1-1/8 oz of #8-1/2 shot, Blue Duster wad and Winchester 209 primer.

It sounds like he was shooting reloads, and the gun burst with one of those.

the 12/20 confusion is that he mentioned this gun had both sets of barrels.

[Grumpy]

Seems to me that he ballsed-up badly and is trying to blame Franchi for his own mistake.
Yes, Mehuls` right, a local gunsmith did once try to deliberately blow up an old dog of a Baikal single barrel 12-Bore by dropping a 20-Bore cartridge in the barrel and then inserting firing a 12-Bore cartridge behind it - all that happened was that the 20-Bore cartridge fired and was blown out the end of the barrel ! Not a mark or bulge or any indication of damage to the gun. The Birmingham Proof House also tried this same procedure with exactly the same result. Baikals ain`t pretty but they are certainly tough.
The obvious caveat applies here: DON`T ATTEMPT TO DUPLICATE THIS PROCEDURE AS YOU ARE PLACING YOURSELF AT RISK OF INJURY OR DEATH.

[Sakobav]

Talking about Baikal

Check this video for Baikal auto by some canadian hunters. These guns are good value for money

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=75095

Have fun

[mehulkamdar]

Navdeep,

I am not at all surprised by the reliability of a Soviet gun. A joke in Western military circles used to be that you hardly ever find military lemons from totalitarian states because the designers would then be in danger of being executed.

Speaking of Baikal doubles, one of the top French gunmakers Christian Ducros has publicly said that he uses their actions to build his guns on because he finds them to be excellent in quality. When you find people willing to pay $ 10,000 or more for a Ducros shotgun with a BAikal action (albeit a very highly refined one) there must be something very good about them.

Cheers!

Mehul

[Grumpy]

Christian Ducros - `le magician des armes`.
He`s not the only one to use Baikal actions as the Brno 600 series are also built on Baikal actions - that`s the gun that the new Brno Rifles parent company are determined to keep in production.
Paul Roberts takes the Baikal IZH-94 Express double rifle ( same action as the O/U shotgun ) rebuilds and refinishes it and charges almost double the price - which is still less expensive than any other double rifle - for a gun that is much more refined and attractive.

[penpusher]

Give me an ugly gun that is reliable and shoots straight any day.After all anything hit with a bullet or pellet is not going to admire the clean lines, the lustrous bluing, the wonderful grain of the wood on the gun, the beautiful checkering and the engraving by a master engraver with gold inlay of the gun that it was fired from It will be just as dead as anything shot with a gun made by any of the top names in the Custom gun making business.Would be easier on the wallet also or maybe save you enough money to enable you to go on that dream safari.

penpusher

[mehulkamdar]

Grumpy,

I like your term "le magicien des armes" for Christian Ducros. The man makes some very remarkable guns and is one of the new gunmaking eccentrics whose work I have been following for some time. Some of his experiments have been very reminescent of old experiments by British gunmakers like ruby front sights for double shotguns for women while some others seem somewhat sterile to me, like his carbon fibre barreled 10 gauge waterfowling guns that are corrosion resitant. That said, he keeps experimenting which is the sign of a fertile mind. If both he and Paul Roberts endorse the Baikal guns, then they must be remarkably good pieces. A Roberts tuned Baikal at twice the retail price of a shop made bAikal gun must be a fantastic bargain!

penpusher,

Inder and I saw some Baikal guns at Gander Mountain yesterday. While they are not objects of beauty, they are far from ugly. Yes, functionality is a factor and they are very functional guns.

Cheers,

Mehul

[Sakobav]

penpusher

Its hard to get decent or better O/u or guns at cheaper prices. Low end Beretta or Franch will set you back by $1500 to $2000.

Rgds

[Grumpy]

Mehul, I didn`t coin that `Magicien des armes` term - it`s how Christian Ducros has been described in France.
I`ve seen one of the Paul Roberts prepared IZH-94 Express rifles and they are easily worth the extra money. If you reckon that his labour is charged @ ( a very conservative ) £25 per hour then the price indicates something like 19-20 hours work ........ and there must be easily that amount of time spent preparing them.