.32 S&W KF vs Imported ammo

[The Doc]

Horrors !!!

AC , many thanks for posting the pictures, they were an eye opener. Now I am not going to enter in a debate whether it was the poor maintenance , cylinder misalignment or the built quality of the firearm versus KF ammo problems. The reasons might be cumulative . Whether .32acp ammo was shot with this firearm or not is just a speculation and not a fact.

The pictures indeed are scary and I hope that I never get to treat the injury thus caused to the shooter. I was on the verge of buying an Arminius sometime back, I am so glad now that the deal never came through.

. I know of a case when attacker was shot with .32 from 12 feet, the shot did not penetrate the heart, it stayed half inch from reaching the heart. The result the attacker survived and the defender inside his house got killed with shot from the 12 bore gun of attacker

There would be a good reason why the bullet stopped half an inch short of the heart, may be an impact with a rib for example. So it missed the heart ? Well it did puncture the lung ( and that can be very serious too) !! The defender must have aimed for the attackers chest in general, no civilian thinks of taking a heart shot in panic.

At 12 feet a .32 ( S&W or ACP) can be lethal. I would never under estimate a .32 caliber projectile at 12 feet.
I remember treating a man where 12 bore pellets had broken his right humerus and entered the chest wall from right side.The chest injury was classified as simple as the pellets were just under the skin and couldn't get any deeper. Now that is neither the fault of ammo nor the shottie !!

Coming to stopping power of handguns in our scenario, well Sir, the options are very very limited. A .380 acp perhaps? It would be a wee bit better than a .32acp, but an absolute man stopper , it is not !! A .357 mag ? Far too expensive !! I would not consider a .40, .44 mag or .50 for obvious reasons.

best,

RP.

[Olly]

Penpusher,
Our debate would be endless...

I will never accept the worth of the junk which KF manufactures for us mortals (read civilians)... can't say what they supply to the armed forces.

Having bought a brand new IOF .32 Rev, the quality was very much visible.... they couldn't even out the grinding marks from the cylinders, they don't know what blueing is and so they use powder coating, in one case they made a smooth-bore revolver.... and the list can be endless....

You open out imports today and then take a vote of how many of us will even 'consider' buying a IOF product ! They are just playing on monopoly and selling first rate junk to us...
The German brands will certainly hold better than the IOF productions....

I must add here that I am a patriotic Indian to the core...

[dev]

One second not debating anything but just a question...the IOF rev seems to work fine with phoren ammo. Not saying it is bestest but maybe there is a way around the problem. Naturally one would love to buy a smith or anything else but since one can't import one...we are doomed to IOF stuff I guess.
Or am i

Dev

[goodboy_mentor]

If imports/competition is opened, it will drastically bring down unrealistic firearm prices in India.

[penpusher]

If imports/competition is opened, it will drastically bring down unrealistic firearm prices in India.

Seems to have had no impact on air rifle/pistol prices.

[goodboy_mentor]

If imports are opened, it is no guess that overpriced .32 IOF are bound to head south. Those who already have .32 IOF, they are bound to praise it and wish the price does not go down. This is natural & expected, no offence intended.

[penpusher]

If imports are opened, it is no guess that overpriced .32 IOF are bound to head south. Those who already have .32 IOF, they are bound to praise it and wish the price does not go down. This is natural & expected, no offence intended.

Personally would welcome such a change and it is not for the first time that i am saying it.I would certainly lose some money but then would also have access to better firearms at cheaper prices.The IOF is the best value for money in the current scenario.Despite the crude finish,it works surprisingly well.Since the purpose is to have a firearm if the need so arises and the IOF pistol fulfills that role,I saw no reason to plonk 3-4 lakhs on a pistol that serves the same purpose.I haven't sold my family jewelery to buy it,if I lose some money so what.Think about a fellow who has bought a .357 mag for 12 lakhs

Now back to the theory of the exploding mangoes,ooooops KF ammo

[eternalme]

Indian democracy is a government of the people for the people where the government does something people never wanted LOL.
Otherwise why would the EXIM policy be changed to ban import of guns for civilian use, where as the government itself keeps getting them for the army.Who is making such rules ? Who is behind such non friendly policies of the government ?

Citizens are supposed to make government and are supposed to be on top of everything in democracy
Animal Farm in action, when the pigs started walking on two legs

-- Sat Feb 28, 2009 17:10 --

[goodboy_mentor]

Citizens need to be always vigilant and keep a check on actions of government. Maybe they can take help of RTI also.

[eternalme]

goodboy_mentor

Don't you remember whom UP government just nominated as the head of affairs for RTI ?

Still you have hopes ?

Regards

-- Sat Feb 28, 2009 20:39 --

Hi,

Is GIF going forward to lodge any PIL regarding gun ownership regulations or Import of firearms ?

I read it was being discussed earlier.

Regards

[goodboy_mentor]

This is exactly I am thinking. IFG/GFI has to take the lead.

Data available till date with Crime Records Bureau under Home Ministry can be collected using RTI, as to what percentage of violent crimes(including terrorism) have been committed by "licensed" firearms AND what percentage of violent crimes(including terrorism) have been committed using "unlicensed" firearms/arms not required "licensing".

On basis of above data PIL can be filed to remove import restrictions/easing licensing norms.

The legal procedures to lift the Np arms from the Negative list of Exim Policy, I can think of, is to file a PIL for below mentioned 4 reasons:

1)Arms License holders as consumers are not getting option to purchase weapon of their own choice.

2)IOF has no competition leading to poor quality weapons & exorbitant prices for consumers.

3)Government loosing revenue which could be earned by way of custom duty.

4)Import restriction serves no purpose as majority of violent crimes are committed by "illegal" firearms and not by legally owned firearms. (This has to be substantiated from data available till date, obtained from Crime Records Bureau under Home Ministry using RTI, as to what percentage of violent crimes(including terrorism) have been committed by "licensed" firearms AND what percentage of violent crimes(including terrorism) have been committed using "unlicensed" firearms/arms not required "licensing".)

I am willing to join others in the forum interested in filling PIL against this "license" raj & import restrictions.

[Olly]

I hope you've enrolled as a volunteer with the GFI... Your suggestions are welcome....

[shahid]

I guess a few of the posts above need to be shifted to the RKBA section.

Coming to this thread's original topic.

I feel that the .32 ACP ( 7.62 Browning pistol ) ammo manufactured by IOF is the closest in international standards as compared to other IOF ammunition.

A .32 round has poor quality control and does misfire at times, besides being irregular in case dimensions at times and being of poor finish.

But one look at the new 2008 IOF .22 LR production versus say a Lapua or Eley Tenex .22 LR round - No jacketing on the lead bullet, irregular shaped lead bullet, crude finish lines, dirty red metal case, spotting on cases, wax on the cartridge - where would this compare to the cheapest practise ammo being manufactured in Eastern Europe, forget about Remington, Winchester, CCI oe Eley.

12 Ga IOF cartridges, even the paper case of KF Special - compare it to an Eley Kynoch paper case cartridge from 1960s, the paper is so inferior. Upon firing the residue sticks to the barrels of fine guns.
Every time a copper brush has to be pulled out.

The IOF .315 cartridge. Each passing year seems to inspire some new downturn at IOF. God just the look of these crude bullets and cases puts you off. Terrible finish is apparent i the 2008 production being retailed at Rs. 50 each in Delhi, and here the helplessness is even more evident - there is no imported .315 round available.

As for the rifle - I saw a new lot of 24 rifles that were delivered to a delaler in Patna from the IOF Icchapur factory. The new stocks are varnished in Purple. Yes Deep Purple. Horror of horrors !

[Olly]

Shahid Bhai,
We were recently firing the .22LR and sorry to say, I had to peel off the wax with my nails from the cartridges to push them into the chambers.... didn't see any improvement there.... and they are new purchases...

Another reason for

[shahid]

I Know, the .22 LR ammo is horrible. Thats what I said above. AMong the entire lot of IOF manufacture only 12 ga Astram is good and the .32 ACP just about passes out but not with any distinction.

I had bought a few S & B rounds of .32 ACP recently for keepinh in the magazine for self defence. Just look at the finish of these cartridges and the IOF made KF and the huge glaring difference is so apparent.