Transaction Dispute

[MoA]

Well the Purdey deal is over and done with, as I see it.

On the .357 why would you want to do business with such a shady guy again?

[HydNawab]

Are you kidding me MoA?I have decided not to sell anything to anyone outside of Hyderabad.

[bullshitwalks]

i totally agree with most of the views on the forum.
without pointing fingers i would like to add, few members on the forum are shady dealers than they are gun nuts.
people are more interested in getting items possessed by others sold and getting a cut.
i want to say more but i might offend many.
cheers

[danish21]

I want to correct my friend Ashar in the story which he narrated.

When I met Ashar in delhi from there we proceeded to Chandigarh till that time I have not seen his gun. When we reached there and the box of the gun was opened we discovered that the barrel of purdey was fake & very poorly fabricated. All markings on the barrel was fake.

The chamber of the gun mentioned in the certificate was 2 ½ & actual it was 2 ¾ . We showed Ashar the barrel and told him that this barrel is fake. We also showed him the KF cartridge of 2 ¾ inches easily going in this barrel. As I was told by Mr. Ashar that he is a skeet shooter and have a vast knowledge about guns, then how come he has bought a gun who’s certificate is saying that this gun has 2 ½ inch chamber and this gentleman is firing 2 ¾ inch cartridges from this gun. That was very strange to me.

Any ways this is true that he said that if this gun has fake barrels then he will return the money to me when we’ll reach delhi, but I told him not to return my money because I was also interested in his colt .357 mag and I have to pay him for that revolver so keep this money with him and I’ll send him rest of the amount and then he will send me the revolver.

The other question rises that why I get his gun endorsed there & why he has been given a certificate ?

As I was told by Ashar that his license is only for Andhra Pradesh & all India has not been endorsed in his license so he can’t carry the gun to Chandigarh & there was nationals going to held in jaipur where he has to carry someone’s gun and he got the permission to carry that gun on his lisence so he needed his license copy before 14th of Dec, so I asked ashar to ask the concerning authoritiy to make a travel permit from Andhra Pradesh to Chandigarh via delhi, and by this permit he can easily carry his gun to Chandigarh.

Now the permit was made in the name of vishal gun house to sell this gun and it was only the one way permit and he can’t take the gun back to his state once he has reached to Chandigarh. So Ashar & his gun both were my responsibility. If I would have said that your gun is fake & take it back then that would be totally wrong as ashar came to Chandigarh on my good faith.

That dealer has not said that he will take this gun in 1 lakh. He said that no one will buy this purdey even in 1 lakh rupees as it has the fake barrels. So I told ashar that now as you can’t take this gun back to hydrabad and if he will deposite here in safe coustudy then he has to submit his lisence with his gun and as he needed his license for carrying a gun to jaipur for nationals so i told him that I am getting his gun endorsed in Chandigarh and when he get free from nationals then he can send a NOC from hydrabad & I’ll courier his gun back to hydrabad.

There Mr. ashar agreed and admitted that he has purchased this gun from Tahir Arms Bombay and that fellow has cheated him. There I also told Ashar that “ Ashar bhai yeh bandook aap ki amanat hai yahan par. Agar aap kahoge to hum isko repair karwa ke sell kar deenge magar sell karne se pehle aap se pooch leenge, warna aap NOC bhej dena hum aapki bandook wapus hydrabad bhej deenge”. Now when the deal of his colt .357 could not get matured and I told him that since I am not buying your revolver so now kindly send me my money back and send me a NOC so that I can courier your gun to hydrabad, then this gentleman stopped receiving my calls. I tried several times but he did’nt received my calls. If he was right then he should have faced me instead of not receiving my call. So when I got tired calling him then I sent him this PM :-

Salam Ashar Bhai

Tried your phone several times but i think you don't want to talk to me thats why you are not responding to my call. Please let me know that when you are going to return the money. As i told you before that it is a fake barrel james purdey gun and i did'nt paid you for a fake gun. So kindly treat this matter as URGENT and do the needful. If still you will not respond to me then i have to take this matter publicly on the form which i don't want to do. So as a gentleman gun lover please refund my money and take your gun. Waiting for your positive & early reply.

Regards
Danish


I just want to know by honourable members of this forum who has commented on Mr. Ashar’s post and gave their views that, is this right that I paid for a james purdey gun and in return I got a fake james purdey gun ? I have send the money in advance to ashar in a good faith and in return I received a fake gun. Is this a justice ? If I get his gun endorsed in Chandigarh and helped him in getting back his lisence as he needed it for playing in a national competition, I did any thing wrong ? Is this a true gun lover’s gift which I received in return ?

Any respected member of this forum is free to go and inspect this gun at vishal gun house Chandigarh. As a proof I also have a voice recording of my last conversation which i did on 2/1/2009 at 3:14 pm with ashar in which he has admitted that he bought a fake purdey from tahir arms.

[HydNawab]

Danish,

Thank you for the reply.Firstly, you might not be aware but the 2 1/2 inch chamber will accept a 2 3/4 cartridge and will also fire.You might find it strange but a little more research from your side might help you accept the fact.

You had not decided to buy the Colt by then and so there is no question of me holding any money for you.I offered you the money and you said 'Dealer tou kaisa bhi karke bech linga.Weapon tou kisi bhi tarah bik gayeji.'

I would have taken back the gun because I had a permit to carry it to Delhi and to Chandigarh.I would have deposited the gun at Vishal Gun House or any other dealer if I wasnt able to take back the weapon.I was not your responsibility in any way because I had come over to Delhi in good faith spending my own money.

If you remember correctly, you made an offer of 1L for the gun after speaking with the dealer.Why did you buy the gun when you knew that it was fake supposedly and why didnt you accept the money back in Chandigarh?If you remember correctly, I had called Tahir Arms and told him what had happened and he offered me my money back.

You have the courage to call me after 10-12 days and ask for the money back.All the time you are assuming that the barrels are fake but I guess you dont know a simple fact that 2 3/4 inch cartridges can be fired in a 2 1/2 inch chamber.How can the weapon still be my 'amanat' when you have paid for the gun,examined it and endorsed it on my license.How can it still be my property?

About the telephone conversation, since you have proof of me accepting the fact that the barrels were fake, i advise you to take me to a court of law.

One thing I have learnt from this experience is that never buy or sell anything where brokers and middlemen are involved.

Why didnt you accept the money when you knew that the barrel was fake?I would have deposited it with Vishal Gun House itself.Basically you bought the gun thinking that you will sell it for a very high price and when you are not able to get your cut in the middle, then you are presurrising me to return your money.There is no way that I can return the money.This is not my livelihood but just a hobby.I will not be taken for a ride by people like you.You can do whatever is in your power.

Ashar

[Sakobav]

Folks

A reminder this is an open forum so please ensure that the posts from the aggrieved parties and others do not contain any material which can be misconstrued as circumventing any laws.

As sad and bad it is to have such a situation develop between experienced members; fellas last thing we need is antis highlighting any excerpts from these posts as an example. I have already advised fellow mods to review the posts here and also implore you both to sort this issue out amiably.

A maxim "You can make up a quarrel, but it will always show where it was patched"


Best

[Grumpy]

2 1/2" chambers will often accept 2 3/4" cases.....although they tend to need pushing in quite hard.
Even if the chambers have been lengthened it doesn`t make mean that the barrels are `forgeries` as it might just be the case that the chambers have been lengthened. In any country that is a CIP signatory ( such as the UK ) this will require that the barrels are reproved and stamped. I commonly lengthen the chambers on British guns that are being sold to the US because 2 1/2" cartridges are not commonly available there - and have also done the same for shooters who shoot clays and wish to use a particular cartridge.
Identifying whether the barrels are original or not is usually easy enough by checking the proof marks and serial numbers. It is not unusual for guns to be rebarrelled - by the original or another maker. This does not make them forgeries as the rib should bear the signature of the barrel maker. Only if new barrels by another maker carry the signature of the original maker can the barrels be considered `forgeries`........ invariably done by transferring the old rib to the new barrels. Chambers are frequently lengthened on barrels that have been sleeved but these also be be subjected to reproof and, in addition to the new proof marks, will also be stamped `Sleeved`.
Lengthening the chambers of original barrels will not effect the value negatively....and can actually increase the value of the gun. Replacement barrels by the original maker will also make little difference to the value. Knackered original barrels will drastically lessen the value of a gun. Replacement barrels by another maker will lessen the value but not dramatically. `Forged` barrels will affect the value by the same amount as signed replacement barrels by another maker. Sleeved barrels will have a major impact on the value of a gun.
The only way to tell if the barrels are original or not is to supply a comprehensive set of photographs of the gun, ALL proof marks, all other stamps and the rib.

[Grumpy]

By the way, 3L I make £5147.20........which is a VERY cheap Purdey unless it`s rough.......It`s very cheap even for a decent gun with so-called `forged` barrels. 1L is a ridiculous price - even a tatty Purdey with unusable out of proof barrels and in need of restocking will make more than that.....by a long way !

[shahid]

Obviously there is a lot of nonsence going on over here.

On the gun.

If the gun has remained in India always since it first came it forget about lenthgening the chamber or reproofing the gun. This cannot be done in India. Reproofing is possible in Ichapore and Munger but if this ever happens the barrels would bear Indian proof marks. And you require a tremendous amount of clout and pull or contacts to get a gun reproofed in India.

But what is going on India - fake proof marks of London and Birmingham by etching or hot stamping or hammering with a die.

Our dear dealers from Meerut, Kanpur, Chandigarh or other places can buy a Berlgian gun or a Birmingham made Gun. He restamps it the way he wants and creates a James Purdey or for that matter a Churchill, Holland whatever.

Certificate from Purdey ;

They are a firm of great gun makers and gentlemen. A lot of their history is published data in various books and journals. With a bit of research our dealer finds a serial number of a geniune Purdey say no. 12345.

He approaches Purdey on a visit to London and asks for a certificate of s few numbers off say 12347.

In good faith Purdey will provide a certificate on their letter head - Gun no xxxxx made in 18 or 19XX year for Mr. Thomas Smith of Lancastarshire, 28 inch barrel, choke, chambers, trigger pull.

The certificate contains nothing else unless the 2nd owner got it registered on their register the ownership change.

Now our dealer adds this fake story that this gun was brought into India and sold. The cooked up fake serial number is stamped. A Belgian gun which he brought some retired govt. official for Rs. 20,000 has become a James Purdey now.

If Ashar was aware of this - that the Purdey has fake barrels before selling the gun and posting it on IFG without full information - he is at fault. THis is not a gentlemans conduct. IFG is not a forum to offload fake guns.

Danish is an Idiot. I had told him to inspect the gun personally before buying it. I would never buy a gun without having a look and feel of it.

If he did not understand enough - experts who knew more than him should have had a look at the gun.

A lot of people want to become Adhnan Kashogi and have Pamela Bordes on their laps in their Lear Jets, ambition is fine but you need expertise and experience. Danish jumped into it too soon. Give it time spend Rs. 4,000 to fly to Hyderabd and look at the Gun. This was your first deal. There are various con men sitting at the other end in this trade. Just look at the statistics. Because of import curbs post 1984 half of the gun dealers in India have been behing bars for some time or the other for all sorts of hanky panky.

Tahir arms is no fake guy. I know him for over 20 years. In 1993 he had a Holland and Holland 12 Bore grade 3 gun for sale for Rs. 50,000. I looked at it and pointed out that the stock is not original, the wood was not Walnut but Indian Sheesham. He admitted and said it is correct hence this lower price.

Now this 2 3/4 inch cartridge business. A 2 3/4 inch cartridge can easily be fired in a 2 1/2 inch chamber. Similarly a 3 inch cartridge can be fired in a 2 3/4 inch chamber.

Me and my family own dozens of fine English Sidelocks and regularly we fire 24 gram Skeet or trap loads in 70 mm shells in them. They shoot fine because of a lower charge. However we refrain from firing 70 mm game loads including KF Astram because it will spoil the gun.

Some people dont. The Maharaja of Bharatpur told me last week over a campfire that till this day he has never fired anything other than Eley 2 1/2 inch no 4 or 6 in his H & H. It is a matter of personal choice.

Now coming back to this case.

Danish had sent the money to Ashar without seeing the Gun. I know this because a part of this money was transferred from my Bank account, I have the proof of transfers.

Ashar is carrying not a Purdey but a fake gun which he is aware of ( The recorded conversation proves this and the call to Tahir arms ).

On arrival in Chandigarh when Danish and the dealer inspect the gun they mention that this gun is not what they intented to buy and for which they have paid. They had paid for a Purdey, not a cooked up Purdey.

A good condition Purdey Sidelock would change hands at anything from GBP 4,000 to 7,000 in England these days. Shooting TImes, Outdoor Life and other gun magazines carry dozens of ads to this effect.

Ashar should agree to return the money. Because the gun is not an original Purdey. If the gun was genuine and the deal was called off in that case the firm of Danish and the Chandigarh dealer should have borne Ashars travel and gun permit expenses and should have helped to transport it back.

But this was not the case.

The gun was a fake and on offer of Rs. 100,000 was made, this is another deal to accept or not accept.

Ashar is wrong on this part too that he wanted his licence free and wanted to carry another shooters gun to Jaipur . Why ? Was the trip to Jaipur dependent on getting rid of the Purdey ? Was Ashar shooting at the Nationals ? Had he qualified ? His freind from Hydrabad Khurram was carrying his own gun so who is this shooter past MQS shooting at the nationals for whom Ashar was carrying a gun on his licnce. The story needs more credibility.

Now the Chandigarh dealer agrees to endorse his gun, free his licence and ship his gun back to Hyderabad for re endorsing on Ashars licence - a pure helping hand and good gesture here on part of the Gun dealer and Danish.

Since the deal has not come through because the Gun was a fake - Ashar must return all money advanced and Danish must arrange to send the gun back with the help of the dealer.

Ashar must return the money first and then the gun should be shipped back.

If the dealer offers Rs. 1 Lakh for this fake gun and Ashar accepts then without fail Ashar must return the Rs. 2 Lakhs imediately to Danish or the Dealer if Danish prefers that.

The case is quite clear. people may give their opinions, fine but there is no need for penpusher Singh Sidhu to jump into the ring and lay accusitions on Punjab dealers without providing sufficient proof here. It is the Law dear fellow and buy the way Danish is a lawyer himself.

[TenX]

I guess the deal is done ... No point arguing/demanding/making a hue and cry over it.



I only hope such out of the way transactions dont bear any mark on all those who trade fair on the forum. Ashar has always been clear and straight with everyone else, and is probably more softy than required.

[mundaire]

For clarity sake, I'd just like to add to what others have stated above - contrary to what some may believe (or what dealers will tell you), shotshell length is measured by checking the length of the fired shell and NOT the unfired shell. Therefore an unfired star crimped 70mm aka 2 3/4" shotshell will quite comfortably slide into a 65mm aka 2 1/2" shotgun chamber.

SAFETY NOTE: Anyone regularly using longer shells in undersized chambers should be aware of the following:

Higher pressures will be created, this can be dangerously unsafe in some guns, and in almost all this will ensure that the action will loosen over a period of time.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Grumpy]

Here we go again - open ones mouth to make a reasonable comment and the Maharajah of BS gets involved.....................

I explained the situation in a CIP member country...... India is not a CIP signatory and I didn`t say it was.

As far as the gun is concerned, no evidence as to it`s genuineness or otherwise has been provided so I can`t comment. Replacement barrels however would not make the gun a `fake`.

The LEAST expensive Purdey SLE advertised on guntrader currently is £8995.

Frankly what amounts to a civil law legal matter between two members has no place being disputed on this forum. This forum is not a court or arbitration service. My comments relate to the gun only and are qualified by the fact that I have not seen it.

[penpusher]

Shahid,


Satish is a scoundrel.He held up the payment for two rifles of a person I know. One was a Savage lever action and the other was a Remington pump action,both in .308.

If some fires a 70mm cartridge in a 65mm chamber,he is a fool

[marksman]

Tenex,
I agree with you on that but after inter acting on this forum with him I have summarized that Asher is a bit too quick with the trigger in his dealings. He has the money power by the grace of God but is often taken for a sucker because of his over enthusiasm or gunnutism. Mumbai dealers have always taken advantage of such clients. It has happened before when he bought a 38 super as well. Asher has been a big help to Mumbai dealers in inflating fire arm prices.
I feel, Asher should have made it known to the prospective buyer, more so because an IFGian was involved in the deal..... if he already knew about the barrel as claimed by Danish.. Or put his terms forward as "as is condition" after inspection. This case looks more like "Passing a buck" type otherwise. It is always a good policy to inspect a fire arm personally before finalisng the deal. We all IFGIans should take an oath to be true to our fallow IFGians at least.(Gun Dealers Included)
Marksman

[HydNawab]

Shahid,

The dealer never told me that he is depositing the gun and he will send it to Hyderabad later.If this was the case, then why did he give me a sales certificate?Moreover, I dont need an open license to carry someone elses weapon to Jaipur.All I need is a carry permit from the DCP or the HM Dept which I had already obtained.I requred just the Arms license.I told Danish that I require the license to carry Khurram Ansari's weapon.If you visit my house in Hyderabad, you will realize that I am not dependant on anything except God.

Credibility?Mr.Ansari does not shoot with his Beretta DT10 as it is a skeet gun and not a trap gun.So he shoots with the range Perazzi MX2000.He had kindly permited me to use his weapon at the range and for the Jaipur Nationals this year as there were too many skeet shooters from AP using the same gun.I had authoirzation from Mr.Ansari as well as the local DCP to carry the weapon.Is that enough credibility for you??????

I know Tahir Arms since a long time.I had bought this gun off them and I have no doubt that they would sell such a weapon to me or to anyone else.I have bought many weapons from them without a problem.Are you seriously accusing me of forging the barrels?It might me in your

As you say that Danish is a lawyer, then he might save the lawyers fee by representing himself in a court of law against me.All the best to him.I feel that there is no point in arguing on this point anymore.I know I have not duped anyone and my conscience is clear.

I am a gun lover and I do not expect to make money off the guns which I purchase.

Ashar