Mumbai under attack

[eljefe]

1/2 boy 1/2 man
The average age of the military man is 19 years.
He is a short haired, tight-muscled kid who, under normal circumstances is considered by society as half man, half boy. Not yet dry behind the ears, not old enough to buy a beer, but old enough to die for his country. He never really
cared much for work and he would rather wax his own car than wash his father's, but he has never collected unemployment either.
He's a recent High School graduate; he was probably an average student, pursued some form of sport activities, drives a ten year old jalopy, and has a
steady girlfriend that either broke up with him when he left, or swears to be waiting when he returns from half a world away. He listens to rock and roll or hip -hop or rap or jazz or swing and a 155mm howitzer.
He is 10 or 15 pounds lighter now than when he was at home because he is working or fighting from before dawn to well after dusk. He has trouble spelling, thus letter writing is a pain for him,
but he can field strip a rifle in 30 seconds and reassemble it in less time in the dark. He can recite to you the nomenclature of a machine gun or grenade launcher and use either one effectively if he must.
He digs foxholes and latrines and can
apply first aid like a professional.
He can march until he is told to stop,
or stop until he is told to march.
He obeys orders instantly and without hesitation, but he is not without spirit or individual dignity.
He is self-sufficient.
He has two sets of fatigues: he washes one and wears the other. He keeps his canteens full and his feet dry.
He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth, but never to clean his rifle. He can cook his own meals, mend his own clothes, and fix his own hurts.
If you're thirsty, he'll share his water with you; if you are hungry, his food. He'll even split his ammunition with you in the midst of battle when you run low.
He has learned to use his hands like weapons and weapons like they were his hands.
He can save your life - or take it, because that is his job.
He will often do twice the work of a civilian, draw half the pay, and still find ironic humor in it all.
He has seen more suffering and death than he should have in his short lifetime.
He has wept in public and in private, for friends who have fallen in combat and is unashamed.
He feels every note of the National Anthem vibrate through his body while at rigid attention, while tempering the burning desire to 'square-away' those
around him who haven't bothered to stand, remove their hat, or even stop talking.
In an odd twist, day in and day out, far from home, he defends their right to be disrespectful.
Just as did his Father, Grandfather, and Great-grandfather, he is paying the price for our freedom. Beardless or not, he is not a boy.
He is the Fighting Man that has kept this country free
He has asked nothing in return, except
our friendship and understanding.
Remember him, always, for he has earned our respect and admiration with his blood.
And now we even have women over there in danger, doing their part in this tradition of going to War when our nation calls us to do so.
As you go to bed tonight, remember this shot. . ..
A short lull, a little shade and a picture of loved ones in their helmets.
Prayer wheel for our military... please don't break it Please send this on after a short prayer.
Prayer Wheel
'Lord, hold our troops in your loving hands.
Protect them as they protect us.
Bless them and their families for the selfless acts they perform for us in our time of need. Amen.'

[TenX]

.. Very well worded indeed... Hats off to them ...

[SRI 420]

Hi eljefe,
A very good and apt di.scription of a comman soldier who risks his life for us all. Very Inspiring and thought provoking.
Thank You and a great salute to all the men in uniform!
Srinivas

[eternalme]

It was a very sad event and even sadder is the way it was treated.I have been thinking on some points these two days and I thought to share the same with you as follows.

Since when we need bamboos to remove curtains off the windows ? Couldn't they be burn with flares ?
Since when we need the commandos to simply wait and watch on the rooftop while the oepration needs the quick action to aid element of surprise?

How come we celebrate the so called victory over the terrorists when lives of about 200 people were lost and about 40 times more man power was required to overcome the threat ?

Where was the hostage situation at Taj and the Trident which forced the forces to act slow? most of the causualities occured during first few hours of the attack while we were planning and getting armed forces to the site.

Does it take a lot of training for killing helpless people with sophisticated weaposn which can fire at the rate of 10 shots a seconds ?
May be we are putting much hype to training to hide our failure in counteracting and removing the menace.

Could the terrorists feel as free in their action as they felt had there been even 10% people armed with concealed weapons of those whom they killed ?

The cruel facts remains that they were succesfull not becasue of their training but becasue of our helplesness, we were shot at and killed as and when they pleased and some say that small things like this keep happeing in big cities like mubai.

Sound skeptical ? It is may be, I can't help but grieve the situation and feel angry at what happend and has been happening to our people since so many years.
This needs to stop here and now.

[Sakobav]

Nice one eljefe

cottagecheese even NYC times touched on lack of equipment
"Part of the answer may lie in continuing signs that despite the country’s long vulnerability to terrorist attacks, Indian law enforcement remains ill-prepared. The siege exposed problems caused by inexperienced security forces and inadequate equipment, including a lack of high-power rifle scopes and other optics to help discriminate between the attackers and civilians."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/01/world ... ?ref=world

Now to to vent and OT with the standard preamble

eternal me you are correct India needs to change their RKBA laws and allow import of guns because its evident that Govt cannot provide the security to the citizens.

After the Rhetoric Issue of systematic failure of intelligence, the lack of public training for such events befuddles me. More prudent approach is emergency drills by Fire deptt, police on evacuation and first response procedures. India should review NYC or other western city procedures wherein every building has volunteer trained fire marshalls and directors for such emergencies.

Leaving aside the equipment issues such as quality of kevlar, ammo, guns etc but something drastic has to be done about the morale of the policemen on the street beat and their training; especially regarding the situational awareness and reaction. With unarmed citizenry in encounters with Terrorists - Policeman is the first and last defense of the society. Even though Mumbai police men gave the ultimate sacrifice but I am surprised why the two terrorists werent taken out by the railway police at the CST station?

Another important issue is to address the low morale amongst the police jawans and low ranking officers. Govt has to restore the people’s faith in the police such that honest officers and jawans is a rule not an exception ( long shot). Imagine what community policing would do in places like Mumbai but an average citizen is too intimidated to interact with the police. This above can only be accomplished by improving their working conditions and they deserved to be treated with respect.

There are lot of theories how to address the above issues but coming from Police family, I distinctly remember the long hours, putting up with political stresses and whims of seniors. Every one is on beck and call of their seniors, starting from jawans who are required to perform family errands and then all the way up the food chain. Policeman's daily interaction and dealing with maggots of the society and corrupt politicians makes cynics even out of the best of them and facilitates the passage to become part of the corrupted and ineffective system.

[amk]

Hi everyone, I'm back... after the 26th!!!

I was less than a km away, could hear all the explosions, see the fires and smoke and hear some gunshots too. These are the places I (we) visit regularly, I could so easily have been caught up in this but my time was not up then.

6 (not very close but nevertheless) friends just reached Tiffins at the Oberoi sat down at the table and this started. 1 survived by escaping immediately, 1 got shot 3 times and survived (rescued next evening) but sadly the 4 others (2 couples) didn't make it.

My take on this entire episode:

The local police and forces were not at all prepared for this, and I don't blame them. None of us expected anything like this.

The 3 senior police officials killed underestimated the gravity of the situation and also the skills of the terrorists.

The terrorists were extremely well trained, highly motivated and quite frankly very skilled at their job. Not only me and but even the NSG is saying the terrorists were almost as good if not better than our forces.

I don't blame politicians or the police for this. The audacity and execution of the plan was beyond anyone's wildest dream.

My dislike of the media has now turned to hatred.

The things I have been wondering all along:

If I was caught up and I was armed with my pistol, would I have fought?
If my family was not with me would I have fought, what if they were with me?

If there were 10 armed (handguns) and trained/practicing citizens at different locations within the restaurant, would it have made a difference?

Would an armed commoner freeze or would he fight back?

What chance does a trained and skilled handgunner have against a trained and skilled fighter with a full auto rifle?

Yes if you have cover and strategies then you may be able to fight back with a lone gun man armed with an auto rifle but even if one does trains it wouldn't be this kind of training.

Arm chair critics and experts are around dime a dozen today, it's very easy to criticise but one can't imagine the others plight, strategy and reasons until you are exactly in his/her shoes. So it wouldn't be right to comment on the commando operation; why, ifs, buts, etc. They came through in the end, well they had too there was no other option was there?

AMK

[amk]

Forgot to mention, the Home Secretary of Maharashtra Mrs. Zutshi was dining at the Taj when the attacks began. She only got out the next day. She was in touch with the Commissioner of Police who asked her to request the army for assistance as there were multiple attacks.

Again, this is reported in this morning's DNA so don't know how much truth there is to it.

AMK

[TenX]

AMK...
Thank God for your safety, but the friend couples who visited Tiffins is disturbing.

Your thoughts and words have a lot of weight, they way you have put them, and shows the thinking and pressure you have been thru.

I guess we will all agree that most commoners would freeze, even if they were armed. But there is a few who fought back, but with stones and stuff. Coming to think of it, the police too are just as much human as all of us, and maybe it would be pretty disturbing for them too, to go arm to arm with trained terrorists, with just a handgun. In a very big picture, maybe if there were enough civilians with guns, and even if a percentage of them fought back, it would have helped; probably more than expecting uniformed people to protect us. The wait, and the massacre that happens till they shield us from the bullets, may have been avoided or atleast controlled to some extent.

I read elsewhere that when a citizen kept calling the local police for help, they arrived more than a half hour after being informed. This half hour could have taken more lives than not. And the person who kept calling, if he had a gun, might have probably done something to curtail the distress.

Largely, the people are at the mercy of such insurgents, and would surely face the brunt against armed terrorism. But facing the same 'with' weapons gives a better chance for the fighting few ...

[amk]

The locals who fought back with stones thought they were driving away drunks and druggies as the spot around there is known for such disturbances. I'm sure once they realised what the eck is going on they wisely got out from there.

[mundaire]

People being allowed to own guns is not about creating "heroes" or vigilantes. Simply put it's about giving people a chance! Without a gun, when faced with an armed threat your chances are close to zero, if you are armed - at the very least you have some chance of being able to defend yourself.

Multiply that probability with the large number of people who were attacked and if even 10% (or more) of those people were armed - it almost becomes a certainty that the perpetrators would have been shot down by civilians well before even the cops arrived.

Independent academic research (by well respected scholars) backs up the claim that more people carrying guns, leads to BOTH a reduced number of multiple victim shootings AS WELL AS substantially reducing their severity... you can download the research paper at http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... _id=272929

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[mundaire]

I wonder if you gents have read this one yet -

Mumbai photographer: I wish I'd had a gun, not a camera. Armed police would not fire back

[Yaj]

I wonder if you gents have read this one yet -

Mumbai photographer: I wish I'd had a gun, not a camera. Armed police would not fire back

I have been wondering about this too.Every time i have been to CST there have been loads of armed police sniffer dogs etc. I was wondering what they had been upto.
Now I know. I am not surprised
Yaj.

[kanwar76]

Guys ,

this incident has started a big debate about RKBA

See this http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs.as ... na=1&nst=1

-Inder

[CannonFodder]

Hi everyone, I'm back... after the 26th!!!

I was less than a km away, could hear all the explosions, see the fires and smoke and hear some gunshots too. These are the places I (we) visit regularly, I could so easily have been caught up in this but my time was not up then.

6 (not very close but nevertheless) friends just reached Tiffins at the Oberoi sat down at the table and this started. 1 survived by escaping immediately, 1 got shot 3 times and survived (rescued next evening) but sadly the 4 others (2 couples) didn't make it.

My take on this entire episode:

The local police and forces were not at all prepared for this, and I don't blame them. None of us expected anything like this.

The 3 senior police officials killed underestimated the gravity of the situation and also the skills of the terrorists.

The terrorists were extremely well trained, highly motivated and quite frankly very skilled at their job. Not only me and but even the NSG is saying the terrorists were almost as good if not better than our forces.

I don't blame politicians or the police for this. The audacity and execution of the plan was beyond anyone's wildest dream.

My dislike of the media has now turned to hatred.

The things I have been wondering all along:

If I was caught up and I was armed with my pistol, would I have fought?
If my family was not with me would I have fought, what if they were with me?

If there were 10 armed (handguns) and trained/practicing citizens at different locations within the restaurant, would it have made a difference?

Would an armed commoner freeze or would he fight back?

What chance does a trained and skilled handgunner have against a trained and skilled fighter with a full auto rifle?

Yes if you have cover and strategies then you may be able to fight back with a lone gun man armed with an auto rifle but even if one does trains it wouldn't be this kind of training.

Arm chair critics and experts are around dime a dozen today, it's very easy to criticise but one can't imagine the others plight, strategy and reasons until you are exactly in his/her shoes. So it wouldn't be right to comment on the commando operation; why, ifs, buts, etc. They came through in the end, well they had too there was no other option was there?

AMK

AMK,
"Would I be able to gather the courage to lay my life down trying to protect the helpless as well as myself and my loved ones?" "Would I freeze when its time to act quickly?"

I carry every day, and I ask myself the same questions every day. (Its part of my ritual of arming myself) I also look around me and ask the question of those around me. The police forces (including swat, commando, army etc...) also have to ask the same questions.

We will only know the answers to these questions when the time comes. The responsibility is there when you take it. Whether you perform your responsibility is your choice, as it is anyone else's (incl. military and martial forces).

The armed forces have an anti cowardice law just for this reason. Even the people who face these decisions daily are aware of the 50/50 chance someone will run and hide rather than stand and fight. Airplanes only want someone to sit at exits once that someone accepts the responsibility to manage the exit on behalf of the public. Otherwise don't do it. This should responsibility should be a part of accepting the right to possession of arms. If one were to abuse their right to be armed then penalties should be proportionate to the abuse. I'm not saying an ordinary citizen is obligated to protect others in a suicidal way, but similar to Israel's call for those who have arms in war torn settlements.

I beg to differ somewhat with you regarding the commandos: Yes their responsibility is a capital one (one with capital risks), and yes it is also part of their responsibility to train efficiently. It does one well to see where they could have done better, some don't have that option anymore, sadly. It is not enough to say the job is done, therefore it was done well.

Essentially, that is what I believe this forum is about. We have our freedoms but not fully. We have democracy, but it is not full. Our people still don't have reasonable rights to prepare for their self-protection. (In the commando context, they did the job, but it could have been done better. This is an internationally held opinion by some of the worlds most trained and active counter-operation forces.)

I am under the impression that at least 95% of the world's population wants a good outcome. They don't want to bother anyone and they don't want to be bothered. They are kind hearted but can be self-centered. They don't like bullies. They are fun-loving. They want peace. Give the public the ability to protect themselves in a reasonable way. Who knows, they might accept the responsibility to protect someone else as well. This question won't get answered till the time comes anyways. As "mundaire" says, "[paraphrasing]What would the situation be like if even just 10% of the public was knowledgeably armed?"

I have deep empathy for you, as well as the city, nation, and world and am saddened by the losses suffered. But what I don't think anyone needs in times like this is deifying propaganda like not being able to critique the operation because of the sensitivity, stress, and risk of the situation.

[hamiclar01]

http://www.openspace.org.in/node/808

apologies if this has been covered before. but i saw the blog and found it interesting