We should interview Abhinav Bindra for RKBA

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Post by mundaire » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:27 pm

TenX,

While 100% of crooks may or may not be armed with guns, is hardly material. The point I was making is that several times more (guns) are held illegally in India, and while all these illegal gun owners may not have a criminal bent, as per law they are in violation of the Arms Act and are therefore guilty of committing a crime.

When I say not all may have a criminal bent I am referring to those people who have procured illegal arms for self protection because they have tried to and failed in their attempts to get an arms license, or maybe they simply cannot afford to buy a legal gun. They however have a threat perception which drives them to break the law to be able to better protect themselves/ their families/ their property. Since no accurate statistics are available for the illegal gun market and the general extrapolations are based on yearly seizures, I can only postulate that such people would be in the minority (amongst illegal gun owners) - but such people do exist.

Coming back to the discussion of criminals being armed. As I had mentioned earlier, criminals have the benefit of being able to plan their attacks and therefore even if they are not armed with guns and merely use knives, sticks or even fists they can plan an ambush and easily overpower their victim with greater force - with or without the use of firearms.

A case in point is the development of the Russian mafia. In it's early days of existence the Russian mafia was hindered by the strict anti-gun laws put in place by the communist administration. So they used plain old muscle power to intimidate, and in many cases even kill adversaries - yes, they would simply corner and beat to death their victims... not a pleasant way to die! :P Once their power was established and the money (from their illegal activities) was flowing in they used that money to assure themselves a steady supply of black market guns. It has even been argued that if Russia had freer gun laws the Russian mafia would have had a much harder time in establishing themselves!

The point is, freer gun laws help law abiding citizens a hell of a lot more than criminals... in fact they have an adverse impact on criminals as the intended victims suddenly cease to be soft & easy targets! Criminals are in crime as they desire "easy money", once the money ceases to be "easy" the incentive is automatically lowered. Not to say that crime will disappear overnight, that would be a foolish assumption, but that the crime rate will begin to steadily decline.

Furthermore, elaborating on my initial point (a few posts back) on the issue being "freedom". Human beings are social animals and to live within a society we impose rules to ensure that people can co-exist with each other with minimal friction. Some rules are written (laws) and some unwritten (etiquette) - all members of society are expected to adhere to these. But each new rule we put in place, decreases our individual freedom, so we must be careful about what rules we do put in place. Debating in detail each and every proposed rule to figure out whether the particular freedom we are giving up is worth the benefit society gets in return.

A good example would be the use of so called foul language. If used in certain settings it is considered boorish, however close friends frequently feel free to use such language amongst themselves in which setting it is merely considered as a way of "expressing emotion". There is a good reason why most nations have no laws curbing such speech as the loss of freedom of speech (in any manner) in return for a politer society is not considered as benefit enough when weighed against the loss of an essential freedom/ human right.

Similarly, gun control laws are put in place to curb crime. However, we have ample evidence that this is simply not working; so why give up a huge personal freedom in return for a hollow promise?

Cheers!
Abhijeet
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Post by mundaire » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:39 pm

TenX wrote:Aso, I know there are a lot of Manu Sharmas around, and I dont actually vote for the ban either.
No lawman will stop the likes of Manu Sharma from procuring an arms license, if you are connected in the way the likes of him always are... the arms license application would be picked up from your home and the license dropped back - try beating that for service! :P

Did you miss out the fact (in the news) that gun in question was allotted from the customs house? So his connections got him a gun worth several lakhs (in all probability) for less than INR 5,000/-... unless the customs issue prices have changed much...

Please do elaborate why someone like him needs freer gun laws? The current scenario suits the likes of him to a "T"! :evil:

Cheers!
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Post by warthog » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:04 pm

mundaire wrote:Errr, yeah it's Abhinav Bindra ;)
warthog wrote: ...If enough people have guns Maoists wont exist,crimes would go down...


Yes the right to keep and bear arms was part of the original declaration wherein the congress enumerated the fundamental rights that should be part of ANY constitution of a FREE INDIA. This however never made it to the actual constitution of India.... but considering the amount of debate they had on universal adult franchise (in the constituent assembly) you'll realise that we are even lucky to be able to vote :evil:

Cheers!
Abhijeet
hi nice to see so many guys debating.
I want to know the source you say that it was originally meant to be the part of the constitution and what other fundamental rights were to be enacted and were our rights originally meant to be absolute.

But we have a golden opportunity with abhinav bindra.dont miss this golden egg.
i had emailed you back in aug about interviewing but got no reply.

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Post by TenX » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:11 pm

mundaire wrote: Did you miss out the fact (in the news) that gun in question was allotted from the customs house? So his connections got him a gun worth several lakhs (in all probability) for less than INR 5,000/-... unless the customs issue prices have changed much...
Matter of fact, I had missed out on this. I am shocked and surprised!

mundaire wrote: Please do elaborate why someone like him needs freer gun laws? The current scenario suits the likes of him to a "T"! :evil:...
No question of Freer gun laws chief..
This example also plays for my concern of more baddies getting hold of arms... Presently, a few MSs use their influence and power to lay their hands on these beauties. Do we want more baddies to come into the frame... :)
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Post by mundaire » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:31 pm

TenX wrote:Matter of fact, I had missed out on this. I am shocked and surprised!
Why are you shocked? It's a known fact that well connected people get arms issued at throw away prices from the customs house. In fact one of my second cousin's got no less than 4 issued in this manner (2 for him and 2 for his elder bro). If you have the right connections in India, the import ban is less than meaningless...
TenX wrote:No question of Freer gun laws chief..
This example also plays for my concern of more baddies getting hold of arms... Presently, a few MSs use their influence and power to lay their hands on these beauties. Do we want more baddies to come into the frame... :)
I thought I'd already established that baddies DO NOT need freer gun laws to get their hands on guns... :roll: I know my posts have been lengthy (RKBA is a topic close to my heart) but do re-read them if time permits...

In fact if I may point out to you the tag line of IFG it goes like this: "Indians For Guns is India's own online forum for technical discussion about firearms, firearm advocacy, gun rights, RKBA (Right to Keep and Bear Arms) and shooting sports in India. This forum is intended to provide answers to frequently asked questions both on guns and about gun ownership in India."

There is a reason why (4+ years back) technical discussions, gun rights advocacy & gun rights/ RKBA were mentioned ahead of shooting sports...

Cheers!
Abhijeet
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Post by mundaire » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:39 pm

warthog wrote:hi nice to see so many guys debating.
I want to know the source you say that it was originally meant to be the part of the constitution and what other fundamental rights were to be enacted and were our rights originally meant to be absolute.

But we have a golden opportunity with abhinav bindra.dont miss this golden egg.
i had emailed you back in aug about interviewing but got no reply.
Warthog, have had a long day... but if you go through/ search some of the older posts in the RKBA forum here. You should be able to find one by me which details the debate in the constituent assembly of the Indian parliament... all details are there.

As to answering my personal e-mails - well, I must apologise. But I get no less than 20 e-mails a day from people (related to guns) asking all types of questions and if I sat down to answer each one in detail I may as well forget about earning a living (I'm a middle class chappie and I do need to bring home the bacon you know). What I do is redirect people to this forum... I hope you understand.

Cheers!
abhijeet
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Re: We should interview Abhinav Bindra for RKBA

Post by TenX » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:52 pm

mundaire wrote: Why are you shocked? It's a known fact that well connected people get arms issued at throw away prices from the customs house....
Honestly speaking, I did not know this. My Bad :oops:

mundaire wrote: I thought I'd already established that baddies DO NOT need freer gun laws to get their hands on guns...
Yes sir, I did read your posts well. My point is to not let more (or all) baddies get guns...

But as Inder pointed out, I may be in a realistic case of regional-perception, and base my thoughts of what is around me.

mundaire wrote: The point is, freer gun laws help law abiding citizens a hell of a lot more than criminals... in fact they have an adverse impact on criminals as the intended victims suddenly cease to be soft & easy targets! ...
I have run out of cards to argue on this. I completely understand and join your say on the innocents having an upper hand in defending/protecting themselves...
mundaire wrote: ...But each new rule we put in place, decreases our individual freedom, so we must be careful about what rules we do put in place. Debating in detail each and every proposed rule to figure out whether the particular freedom we are giving up is worth the benefit society gets in return.
This is like a read from one of my management books :)
ABS right on that. You hit the nail on the head... And this is also my primary concern.. about debating new changes before any form of implementation or even reach a consensus on it.
The bigger picture of what we discuss may even be out of our lifetime, but as long as it has been healthily argued upon; as long as no stones are left unturned, I guess every word put in here by us has a good impact :)

I only wish more people would join in with more views and suggestions.

We have identified a list of black marks. We have looked at probable solutions. I have no problem with both of these. Now comes the Implementation part which I am skeptical about. I dont know if its even close to my capacity to suggest with such less experience, but I know I can contribute in airing out my fears. Somewhere, there may be a small number who have similar queries.

Change, although the only constant, will always see resistance. Its good in one sense, so that the planning is more accurate. Even if we go about with RKBA, I did have two initial questions on (a) controlling procurement of arms by baddies and (b) have enough control people, be it in issuing or licensing, to ensure free trade in legal and normative ways, which I feel is not yet completely clear :)
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Post by OverUnderPump » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:44 pm

Why would a baddie want a licensed weapon when he can get one illegally without any paperwork and at a fraction of the cost. A licensed weapon will show up against his name, an unlicensed weapon wont. Consider the Manu Sharma case, the fact that he had a licensed weapon (even though it was never found) swung the judement in the victims favor. An illegal weapon on the other hand is freely available and much more acceptable to a baddie any day. And free-er gun laws doesn't mean schools out and every Tom Dick and Harry gets a piece. When I mean Free- I'm looking at transparency in the process. Who gets what and why and by when. If there is a rejection, the criteria for the same etc. Currently the transparency in the process is debatable, which makes it easier for the 'Irresponsible Influential' types to get a gun. If there's transparency in the application process, it would mean far more detailed checks in terms of background and gun safety awareness. That's how it should be 'ideally'. But then we don't live in an ideal world. So, I dont really agree with the school of thought that a bad guy will jump in joy at a relaxed licence raaj, he'll rather stick to his anonymous katta. To the 'Irresponsible Influential however, it really doesn't matter much he still gets his guns, but now if the process is detailed and transparent he would actually face a few hurdles, as now there would be the possibility of process scrutiny which would keep a tab on the licensing authority.

I agree completely with the rules bit too. Just like George Washington once said, "A government is like a fire, a handy servant but a dangerous master." For one I don't think RKBA is even an issue in the Indian context as the powers that be couldn't care less whether a law-abiding citizen is armed or not. And it will only get worse unless our dissenting voices are heard. In some circles our credibility is doubted and folks dismiss us as crazed, paranoid doomsday sayers. We don't need to rub their noses and make them see sense, that will only enforce their notion of us as an intolerant lot (needless to say we are all reasonable folks here :D). We have to indulge in subtle activism because the very idea we are trying to push comes across as explosive to most liberal folks(read anti-gun types).

The legal and constitutional arguments that we have are important in court. But in the political arena and the forum of public opinion, discussing rights gets little or no traction (Especially if it's about gun ownership...**SHIVER**). There we must focus on demonstrating that having armed, honest private citizens can be good public policy.

Just like the analogy drawn on cars, this is all about familiarity. I remember a time when sex and titillation was taboo on TV(Doordarshan, :P Ram Ram Ram). Now with the introduction of cable Television several movies,soaps and shows which would have been considered steamy and unacceptable in erstwhile India are now suddenly palatable,:) fashionable even. This has come about due to exposure and awareness. The same type of mindset is a hurdle to RKBA. Thats what we need to overcome.

regards
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PS: Excellent debate, lets hear from others too.
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Re: We should interview Abhinav Bindra for RKBA

Post by TenX » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:01 am

Guys.. you are overwhelming me... :)
I might just be better off saying Aye Mundaire, Aye OUP.. but guess I can go on a little more :)

OverUnderPump wrote: ...When I mean Free- I'm looking at transparency in the process. Who gets what and why and by when. If there is a rejection, the criteria for the same etc. Currently the transparency in the process is debatable, which makes it easier for the 'Irresponsible Influential' types to get a gun. If there's transparency in the application process, it would mean far more detailed checks in terms of background and gun safety awareness.
I dont think RKBA does just not stop at transparency in the process. It will probably go on to procurement, importing, areas of usage, manufacture, re-loading and so on.
And if there is a process where transparency does not existing, just enforcing RKBA may not mean a sure shot transparent system, right?

OverUnderPump wrote: ...I remember a time when sex and titillation was taboo on TV(Doordarshan, :P Ram Ram Ram). Now with the introduction of cable Television several movies,soaps and shows which would have been considered steamy and unacceptable in erstwhile India are now suddenly palatable,:) fashionable even. ...
But sir, the television and media growth too has many loop-holes, with cable-TV provider wars, illegal use of electricity poles, relay of unauthorized movies, and so on. Tapping of cable by non-payers still agonize the providers.
In any ideal situation, I would whole heartedly accept that exposure and awareness creates the required motive to change and adapt. But when the want to own responsibility is so low, the control mechanisms have to be far more superior that what it is. there is a certain percentage of elasticity built into any process, and that much of deviation can be gulped as an overhead. But with gun-laws, not being able to accurately implement the solution could even mean toppling of a government, apart from possible serious inflictions.

But what will surely happen, is that the illegal arms manufacture industry will surely be hit. More world-class players will enter the scenario; prices will drop; better choices; affordance will drop from the higher to middle class.

.. and what may happen is all our imagination to scour out the possibilities, rate the priorities and eventually decide on an action plan with these possible implementation failures.

OverUnderPump wrote: PS: Excellent debate
Thank you .. and You too :)
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Post by TenX » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:06 am

On a lateral thought something like http://inventors.about.com/od/kidinvent ... tors_2.htm may be ideas to think about :)
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Re: We should interview Abhinav Bindra for RKBA

Post by kanwar76 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:13 am

I say lets get out on the roads chaps. Lets get some placards made with strong messages, get together all DD’s or any one else who want to join and protest peacefully before the parliament. I know there is not much advantage in doing this but one thing is sure it’s going to bring RKBA topic on the forefront. I am sure TV channels will be there to cover us and who knows Brakha Dutt will have RKBA as a discussion topic on next “We the People”

Now who knows where we can get permission to organize a protest in Delhi?

:)

-Inder
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Post by OverUnderPump » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:25 am

Its good to agree to disagree :D TenX. You're dead right about the 'Ideal' bit. But we dont live in an ideal world, never have never will. Unless its like the made up world in 'Judge Dredd'(apologies for this analogy to those who haven't seen the movie), even in that world all it took was one deviant(Wesley Snipes) to muck it all up. So, deviants will always abound whether we like it or not.

Whats the main pain area is the attitude of the people towards firearms.Whenever we voice our views for RKBA, folks will look up and say, ah there goes a gun nut who'd like nothing more than to shoot anything that moves, given a chance. But thats just fine, I guess folks trying to prove that the earth is round had just as hard a time as we are having with this baby. I agree with you that just implementing the RIGHT wont be enough. It would have to have ancillary enactments which cover the other aspects of gun laws,ownership,procurement etc. It has to start with awareness, then comes the other bit. Awareness can only be had with the selling of this idea.

And since it's a democratic country, You can not sell people an idea unless you can get them to listen to you. You have freedom of speech, but others have the freedom to ignore you and oppose you. Let folks oppose us, but don't let them ignore us. Its imperative to have a guy listening and thinking about this without asking him to pass a judgement right away. Let him ruminate on it, folks need time to come around.If he reverts, excellent. If not he has at least been introduced to the idea. So, thats the activism I'm talking about. I've been doing a bit of this with a few anti-gunners and have managed to win over at least 40% of them. I'll just keep going :)

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Post by TenX » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:29 am

Not a bad sugestion Inder :)

What I would prefer is that we not only look at the aftermath, but
> properly set goals, with intermediate milestones
> translate these goals into action, deciding on various possible methods, loopholes, etc
> plan and make required decisions to go about these actions.

In a very broad perspective, we may even be better off with the right kind of study material in schools that educate children about guns :)

We would need better departmentalization of ensuring a legitimate and planned interventions to ensure a controlled free-flow.. seems odd, I agree.. maybe I am not properly placing them words :)
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Post by TenX » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:34 am

OverUnderPump wrote: ...You have freedom of speech, but others have the freedom to ignore you and oppose you. ...
See.. thats something they never taught me in school... as part of our Fundamental Rights :) :)

OverUnderPump wrote: ...So, thats the activism I'm talking about. I've been doing a bit of this with a few anti-gunners and have managed to win over at least 40% of them. I'll just keep going :)...
So appreciate the way you put it :) :)
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Post by OverUnderPump » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:41 am

TenX wrote:In a very broad perspective, we may even be better off with the right kind of study material in schools that educate children about guns :)
Yep this is exactly the school of thought I'd ascribe to.
TenX wrote: See.. thats something they never taught me in school... as part of our Fundamental Rights :) :)
:lol: :lol:

I also liked the :) finger print gun idea.

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