Opinions required regarding calibre choice

[mehulkamdar]

Gentlemen,

If you find the 303 hard kicking, there must be something wrong with the position that you hold the gun in. I am not fond of recoil in any way and I think the 303 is a fine, mild kicking round even off a bench - very similar to shooting prone. The 30-06 is a more powerful round though this is most probably because it can be loaded to higher pressures because it is usually chambered in Mauser type rifles which are stronger than the Lee Enfield. That said, the Enfield was the finest military bolt rifle ever. It is, beyond doubt, the most reliable feeding and extracting bolt action type and also the fastest to operate. At the only military confrontation where masses of shooters with Enfields and Mausers squared off, Mons during World War -1, the much smaller British Expeditionary Force fought off a German unit that was several times larger with the superb, fast shooting Lee Enfields. The Germans even thought that the Brits were shooting machineguns. But this is OT.

The 270, 280, 35 Whelen etc are all rounds that are based on the 30-06 by necking the case up or down. The 270 and 280 recoil less and the 35 Whelen is comparable to the 30-06. These are all fine rounds with good accuracy potential and low recoil. Would be happy to show you how to shoot these things so you don;t get hurt when I come to India. In any case, even with maximum loads they will NOT hurt you even with a bad shooting stance. I have described it where I have posted pictures of myself shooting some big stuff - 500 and 577 BPEs and 450-400s but I'll recap here:

1. Do NOT use an ISSF stance - you will only drive your elbow down into your body or the ground and hurt yourself

2. Stand up facing the target with the rifle held firmly so that it does not torque out of your hands but NOT TOO TIGHT

3. Make sure that the butt is in the soft part of the shoulder and that it does not touch any bone

4. If you're shooting standing up keep your knees slightly bent. This would drive the rifle up in recoil and dissipate the recoil energy into the air instead of driving it straight back into your shoulder

Again, this is for the really heavy recoiling guns. With the 303s you may have been shooting them with the butt touching your collar bones for them to hurt.

Cheers!

Mehul

[Mark]

Grumpy,

Here is another one I just thought of, sorry it took me so long to remember!

Anyway, it is the 25-35. A nice round winchester developed right after the 30-30 and using the same parent case. Shoots a 110 grain bullet a tad over 2200 IIRC. Winchester still makes brass and ammunition for it and everyone makes reloading dies too.

[Mark]

Also, Mehul is correct with hints on shooting the heavy kickers.

The problem is if the 303 is the largest thing you have ever shot it seems pretty stiff. The cure is to shoot some stuff that literally shakes boogers out of your nose, then the 303 class stuff doesn't seem so bad anymore

[Grumpy]

Recoil is very similar with the .270, .303 and .30-06. The later two kick rather more than the first because of the heavier bullets used but the reason that the .303 has a reputation for uncomfortable recoil is because of the hard butt-plate of the SMLE and its military design stock - in a high comb sporting rifle with a butt pad all three have quite comfortable recoil.

[Grumpy]

Mark, I`m restricted to what is offered as far as the Finn Classic double is concerned so the more `esoteric` calibres aren`t available. I already have a .250 class calibre in my 6.5x55 ( .256 ) Steyr Mannlicher Pro-Hunter so won`t be looking to duplicate the calibre. I wouldn`t bother to get a set of .22 centrefire barrels for the double as my only use for such a calibre would be for Fox control which is mostly at long range so a B/A is much more suitable.

[Grumpy]

The only .257s that I can think of are the .257 Roberts and .257 Weatherby Magnum. Both are HIGHLY unlikely to have made it to India and the availability of ammunition there is likely to be zero. Mauser have never chambered a rifle for either calibre but it`s quite possible that M98s have been built in .257 Weatherby mag in the US and they have definitely been rebarrelled for the .257 Roberts. Are you sure that you don`t mean the 6.5x55 Swedish - .256 calibre ? The Mauser 96 was chambered for the 6.5x55 as standard and some of those that went through the British Proof Houses were stamped `.256"`.

[jonahpach]

The Lee Enfield 303's and 7.62's that I have shot are Indian Army stuff without any recoil pads whatsoever and they kick like hell! 303's have some kind of brass? steel? plate as a pad. Anyway these are the most powerful I have tried out. However the 7.62 Ishapore seems more docile.

Jonah

[dev]

Hah hah that's a great tip. I don't remember if I felt it kicking hard. I just remember going clip crazy and trying to empty the clip as fast as I could. So I think I must have enjoyed it.

Regards,

Dev

Also, Mehul is correct with hints on shooting the heavy kickers.

The problem is if the 303 is the largest thing you have ever shot it seems pretty stiff. The cure is to shoot some stuff that literally shakes boogers out of your nose, then the 303 class stuff doesn't seem so bad anymore

[dev]

It looked trigger wise like the shot of the BRNO .256, it had two triggers and the cartridge looked quite cute. I remember that it was a magnum but it did not have the BRNO type of stock it had a typical sporter type of stock. I clearly remember my friend telling me that it wasa mauser. So i guess it must be a 256.

Regards,

Dev

The only .257s that I can think of are the .257 Roberts and .257 Weatherby Magnum. Both are HIGHLY unlikely to have made it to India and the availability of ammunition there is likely to be zero. Mauser have never chambered a rifle for either calibre but it`s quite possible that M98s have been built in .257 Weatherby mag in the US and they have definitely been rebarrelled for the .257 Roberts. Are you sure that you don`t mean the 6.5x55 Swedish - .256 calibre ? The Mauser 96 was chambered for the 6.5x55 as standard and some of those that went through the British Proof Houses were stamped `.256"`.

[mehulkamdar]

Jonah,

Every service Lee Enfield came with a steel buttplate. I have shot them quite a bit - a friend in Appleton has several of them and we often go shooting together when I drive to Wisconsin. I have never found the 303's recoil a problem. You need to address your stance if it hurts.

This may be further OT but the hammer 450-400s and the 500 and 577 BPEs that I shot also had steel buttplates. Many shooters who participate in classic rifle matches shoot the vastly more powerful 45-120 and 50-110 rounds in Sharps replica rifles with steel buttplates. If we meet in India I could show you how to do this. The 303 is a fine round that no one has to be worried about.

Dev,

Many bolt rifles made on the Continent came with double set triggers. What happens here is that pulling one trigger removes almost all of the pressure to fire the second one, making the pull of the second trigger very light. It is a feature that lends itself to precision shooting.

Cheers,

Mehul

[Grumpy]

If the rifle had double set triggers it was definitely a sporter - I presume that by a Brno type stock you mean the typical continental curved comb type ? Designed for running game I suppose but I don`t like them - especially with a scope.
Don`t know where the `magnum` tag came from - there isn`t a 6.5/.256 magnum and no continental gunmaker that I know of has ever chambered for the .257 Weatherby mag.
Mehul, I`m a little shorter than you but heavier than either you or Asif ( 102 Kg ) and I find SMLEs uncomfortable to shoot - depends on the shape of ones shoulders..... - or something - I suppose. The stock design of the 30-06 Garrand was better ( IMO ) and I always found them much more comfortable to shoot than a SMLE.

[mehulkamdar]

Grumpy,

Speaking of the Garand, my friend Wayne who has the Enfields, collects service rifles from the two World Wars. He once bought a Garand from the DCM at a huge discount and took it to show to his 90 year old father who had fought in WW-2. His father's words were, "What do you want to do with one of them crowbars?" Apparently, many American soldiers didn't like the idea of getting their thumbs caught in the mechanism while reloading. But, wouldn't the Garand, luke the FAL that Jonah talks about, be softer kicking because they are semi autos with gas actions?

Speaking of the Enfields, I guess it must be something unusual about them that hurts some people and not others. I know that you shoot the considerably more powerful 9.3x74R without trouble and it must be something about the Enfields that hurts you.

Cheers,

Mehul

[Grumpy]

American troops didn`t like the weight of the Garand/M14 either which is another contributor to its` light recoil. The Smellies always used to whack me on the collar bone which could be damned painful if I didn`t really pull the rifle into my shoulder. Military rifles have to be built on a `one size fits all` basis.....unfortunately SMLEs don`t fit me !

[eljefe]

I have met with similar complaints Grumpy, Though I will defend the 303 smelly to my last breath...
there is something about shouldering it-and overcoming the one size fits all design... kind of a subconscious fit I guess, either one likes it or hates it-but what a design, that rear locker.
talking about recoil, am going to start a poll onrecoil-lets see the responses

[mehulkamdar]

Grumpy,

Going back to your post, I'm not that much taller than you, and, at about 95 Kg, not much lighter either. It must be, as you say, that the Smelly hits your collarbone. I think that must be true for Jonah as well.

Asif,

Your post tells Grumpy what I have been telling him for some time - that we Indians love the Smelly. Somehow, the rifle seems made for us and I wish there were someone in India who could make some ENfield sporters like the ones Philippe Ollendorf makes in Austria!

Cheers,

Mehul