SERIOUS GAP BETWEEN SUPPLY & DEMAND OF ARMS

[hock ann]

At present with the liberalised licensing policy envisaged under the new Arms Act, licences for NP bore Revolver/Pistols are being granted liberally to the eligible persons resulting in substantive growth in the demand of such weapons,on the other hand, all the legitimate sources of supply of such weapons namely indigenous production & import from abroad are closed. Thus a vast gap between supply & demand of such weapons has been created. This can be compared with a situation in which Ration Cards are being issued to a large number of persons with no supply of Ration commodities to the designated ration shops i.e., The Arms dealers of our country are not supplied with IOF small weapons for resale.is the IOF trying to capture the market & packup the arms dealers ?
The IOF failed to supply the citizen of this country with handguns for a long period of over 15 years and after waithing for this long period what we get a civilian pattern hand gun which is a pis of shit.
The policy of the Govt. of India before was to ensure that no unit or business group acquires a dominant or monopolistic position in the market.
Further the present policy of the Govt. as not to allow other gun manufacturing industries to manufacture small weapons has put the IOF quality down with no competitor in the market. The result is IOF is still lagging much behind in terms of quality-standard & price structure in comparison to the foreign products. which has almost become a dream for many of us to buy now-a-days,
Our country is blessed by Nature with vast treasures trove of several raw materials which go into the production of firearms & efficient man-power India should go forward manufacture and even export firearms for which there is a good market all around the World.
Perhaps India is the only country where production attracts punishment when you talk about QUOTA system.
HK,

[nagarifle]

well IOF is not to blame, but the gun user ie sports/ and others, who do not raised voice to political leaders.

the govt does what it does and gets away with it as there is no political or other kind of pressure.

sadly for the security forces, IOF they stated few weeks back in one of the national broadsheet that they are going to manufacture hi teck weapons and clothing ie stealth suit, special weapons etc.

i believe that if enough people got together with few politicians leaders and raised the issue in the parliament something positive will come from it.

[mundaire]

At present with the liberalised licensing policy envisaged under the new Arms Act,

There is no "new" arms act... the arms act dates back to 1959 and it's true beginnings can be traced all the way back to 1878!

licences for NP bore Revolver/Pistols are being granted liberally to the eligible persons resulting in substantive growth in the demand of such weapons

Not true! Don't know how one can define "liberal" - but granting a measly few hundred new licenses per year in a metropolis the size of Delhi cannot be considered "liberal" by any stretch!

on the other hand, all the legitimate sources of supply of such weapons namely indigenous production & import from abroad are closed. Thus a vast gap between supply & demand of such weapons has been created.

This is true - the problem is compounded by the fact that the so called "indigenous production" is so substandard that no one who can afford something better wants to buy their stuff!

The Arms dealers of our country are not supplied with IOF small weapons for resale.is the IOF trying to capture the market & packup the arms dealers ?

Forget about firearms - the dealers are not even issued enough ammunition to satisfy the prevalent demand creating situations of unnatural scarcity - leading inevitably to black marketing of even crappy KF ammuntion in certain cases!

The IOF failed to supply the citizen of this country with handguns for a long period of over 15 years and after waithing for this long period what we get a civilian pattern hand gun which is a pis of shit.
The policy of the Govt. of India before was to ensure that no unit or business group acquires a dominant or monopolistic position in the market.
Further the present policy of the Govt. as not to allow other gun manufacturing industries to manufacture small weapons has put the IOF quality down with no competitor in the market. The result is IOF is still lagging much behind in terms of quality-standard & price structure in comparison to the foreign products. which has almost become a dream for many of us to buy now-a-days,
Our country is blessed by Nature with vast treasures trove of several raw materials which go into the production of firearms & efficient man-power India should go forward manufacture and even export firearms for which there is a good market all around the World.
Perhaps India is the only country where production attracts punishment when you talk about QUOTA system.
HK,

As you have very rightly pointed out - monopolies lead to inefficiencies - this is plain simple second second year economics! IOF by in spite of all it's inefficiencies produces handguns for a cost of approximately INR 10,000 (or less I forget the exact figure) - this as per their report given to the CAG. That very same handgun is retailed by them for SEVEN TIMES that price!!!

Our own (democratically elected) government is indulging in blatant profiteering here... And why can't we refer this to the Monopolies & Restrictive Trade Practices Commission? Well... it's a matter of national security you see... unless the IOF rips you off your hard earned money, it would be unable to support our "indigenous" defence production effort

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[saahil]

hi all
i know nobody in this forum cares to read the replies added by a amateur member like me, who lacks
technical knowledge about guns.one thing is for sure that if senior members ever give a call to fight for RKBA,you will always find me standing beside you in the first place. lets start a movement and i assure you if we will strike with full might we will get something out of it, senior members please try to do something.take care.

[Olly]

hi all
i know nobody in this forum cares to read the replies added by a amateur member like me, who lacks technical knowledge about guns.senior members please try to do something.take care.

Don't under-estimate your opinion. Feel free to express your views, but keeping the rules and legalities in mind....

You have a good suggestion there....

[badshah0522]

hi all
i know nobody in this forum cares to read the replies added by a amateur member like me, who lacks
technical knowledge about guns.

Why do you think in this way,,keep on posting,,every one cares for each other on this forum.

[nagarifle]

saahil

so what u are saying is that when the cops fire the bullets u will be there to catch them with ur bat?

ur contribution is welcome, it does not matter if u are new or an old fart, as u may know something that we in the forum do not, so please do not feel left out, so keep posting.

nagarifle

[shahid]

We have excellent facilities here in UAE, Abu Dhabi and would like the Govt. of India to allow import of UAE Chacaral pistols in .32 and other calibers. It will be retailed for Rs. 35,000 each.

Similarly Turkish and Baikal guns if imported into India ( 12 Bore ) shotguns, would cost Rs. 6,000 each with freight. There is a shortage even for Private guards.

Cyprus made Olympia ammo would cost Rs. 11 each for 12 Bore.

On the middle market level a new Winchester Model 70 Rifle will be sold for Rs. 60,000 and an Spanish AYA gun for Rs. 45,000.

Upper end firearms has no limit of course. An new H & H royal costs arounf GBP 65,000 these days.

Wht this monopoly ?

[penpusher]

Abhijeet,

Do you have a link to the report of CAG in which IOFB has mentioned the cost of manufacturing it's pistol?

[mundaire]

Abhijeet,

Do you have a link to the report of CAG in which IOFB has mentioned the cost of manufacturing it's pistol?

penpusher,

The information was in a government report that someone had mailed me, but I can't seem to find it right now - will post the details here when I manage to locate it. Meanwhile I've found another document in my archives which may prove to be handy it's the "SEVENTH REPORT - STANDING COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE (2005-06)" (pdf file attached with this post) and contains the following two gems (amongst others):

Page 31
CHAPTER VIII - PRICING SYSTEM OF ORDNANCE FACTORIES

(b) Supply to Civil Trade and Export sector is effected at a maximum price that can be absorbed by the market with an aim to recover full cost and profit. The profit so generated is taken into consideration at the time of fixation of price of defence products with a view to pass on the benefit to defence sector as Ordnance Factories do not have mandate to retain profit. A profit of Rs. 164.32 crore has been generated from supply to non-defence sector during 2003-2004.

Page 33
8.7 In a presentation to the Committee, the Chairman, OFB gave the following price comparison of certain OFB products with international prices:

Product 5.56 mm Assault Rifle
OFB Price US$ 450
International Price US$ 800-1,000

Which basically means that even the highly inefficient OFB is able to produce an assault rifle at less than INR 20,000 (US$ 500)... that's half the price of what a decent imported airgun is selling for these days (in India) and a fraction of the price that a civilian would expect to pay for an imported rifle!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[cottage cheese]

Which basically means that even the highly inefficient OFB is able to produce an assault rifle at less than INR 20,000 (US$ 500)... that's half the price of what a decent imported airgun is selling for these days (in India) and a fraction of the price that a civilian would expect to pay for an imported rifle!

Ah! Abhijeet,

The telling factor is quality.

Ask the man in the field not the charlatan in the office.

The inefficiency remains the number one thingy in spite of all the technical gobbledygook on the babu report.

Maybe they can ask why equally efficient (If not better in many ways) AKs are available at bulk for a quarter of that price. Why does the man in the field still want AKs in spite of the 'standardization' of the INSAS? Maybe the babus should ponder over that for a while


Regards,
cc

[mundaire]

was wondering when you'd pipe in on this one CC!

+1 to your post. The troops on the ground are not happy with the INSAS and going by IOF's track record for quality no one is really surprised They're probably the only producer of AK clones in the world who has actually managed to mess it up enough to ruin it's legendary reliability!

I hear that almost all major parts for their pistols are outsourced to private contractors (including the frame), so the logic of allowing the private manufacture of rifles/ handguns being a security breach no longer seems tenable. I'm sure if 2 or 3 (or even more) big private players were handed out licenses for the production of small arms and ammunition we would see a dramatic improvement in the quality of arms & ammo being supplied to both the military as well as civilian market.... but I'm not holding my breath

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[hock ann]

Before the British came to India the situation in our country was that in almost every house, there were some Arms. Possession of arms was regarded as sign of dignity & self-respect Even to-day in our country many communities on Dussahra day arms are worshipped, Which is symbolic or the respect given to Arms in earlier times. Now because of new rules we are losing the culture of keeping arms and the day is not far when a citizen of India will be allowed to possess only one fire-arm.beware Indians.
The Indian Arms Act has an insipid history behind it. Though there had been certain restrictions on the possession & carrying of Arms in the areas under the British Rule since 1841, there was practically no Arms law, as such, in india until the upheaval of 1857 The first comprehensive Arms Act was passed on 11th Sept,1857 (Act-XXVII of 1857)& it was replaced by the Act-XXXI of 1860.passed on 1st july,1860.which was later on replaced by the Indian Arms Act,1878 (Act-XI of 1878) & came into force on 15th March,1878.
But after Indian War of Independence of 1857 the British Rulers, being horrified by the armed might of the common man of India deprived the whole nation of Arms. They unarmed the people by putting ban on possessing & carrying the same.Thus the Indians, once famous fighters, were rendered mere strangers to the use of arms. This object was further achieved by Act XXXI of 1860. Wherein the definations of the expressions ARMS & AMMUNITION were widened & the executive restrictions in the matter of Grant of licences, not only in relation to manufacture & sale, but also to the use & possession of Arms were tightened. There was hardly any weapon of offence or defence which was not covered by the definition. This Act was followed up by another Act, that is Act-II of 1878. Act 11 of 1878 provided for disarming any Provinces, District or Village and made it unlawful for anyone to possess arms & ammunition without a licence.
In short the Indian Arms Act of 1860, as substituted by Act of 1878 was intended to disarm the entire nation, and to make it impossible for another war of Independence against the British rule.
But after independence there had been a persistent desire that the old Act of 1878 ought to be materially amended so as to bring it in the line with modern conditions. Hence,the Arms Bill of 1958 was introduced in the Loksabha on 23rd April,1959. This bill as amended was passed on November 17th 1959. & this Act of Parliament recieved the assent of the President on 23rd of December,1959. & was published in the Gazette of India,Part II Section 1 of december 24, 1959.
THE MATERIAL OF SECTIONS :- 1,2,3,4,5,10,11,12,17,20,21,22,24,25,26,22,30,32,34,36,39,40,41,42,43,44, & 45. is taken from the old Act of 1878 with necessary changes suitable to modern circumstances. Not only that but there are a number of improvements made & introduced in the above sections in the new Act.
THE FOLLOWING SECTIONS ARE NEW :-
6,7,8,9,13,14,15,16,18,19,23,27,28,31,33,35,37,38 & 46. The objects in introducing these new sections were to 1) the Liberalisation of licensing provisions But while the policy of liberalisation were to be followed,there were some restrictions & certain safeguards also in order to maintain law & order & see that the arms do not reach quarters which are antisocial in nature.
Now if the licenceing authorities are not granting licences to the needy applicants what are the applicants doing ? The sub-section (2) & (2-A) are subsitutes for the original sub-section (2) which was amended in 1983 "(2) On receipt of an application, the licensing authority, after making such enquiry, if any,as it may consider necessary shall,subject to the other provisions of this chapter,by order in writing either grant the licence or refuse to grant the same." are the applicants going for appeal or just giving up I don't know how much one tries but if you really want to have one you better try hard dont just give up " THE moment you think of giving up..think of the reason why you held so long..Do or Die is an old saying ..Do it before you Die is the new one" we are nomore in the British India.
Mr.justice M.Katju of the Allahabad High Court, in the Landmark judgement of Ganesh Ch Bhatt V. D.M. Almora (UP) : (1993)21 ALR 300 said " Since the avowed object of the 1959 Act (as mentioned in the statement of objects & reasons) is to do away with the british policy of keeping the Indian nation disarmed, we must give an interpretation to the provisions of the said Act which is in conformity with the above object. However, the unfortunate fact is that the authority often interpret the 1959 Act as if it is not materially different from the 1878 Act, and hence applications for Arms licences are as readily & arbitrarily rejected as before (para-14)".
Is there any memberhere whose application for grant of arms licence is rejected & that he has appealed before the appellate authority ?