12 bore double barrel shotgun.

[Mack The Knife]

Hi Grumpy,

I have shot Sat's A5 and I love that shotgun. Now even though I can get one for free, I simply refuse to go through all the red tape associated with a prohibited bore gun purchase. Getting a licence for a non-prohibited gun was annoying enough.

I haven't seen actual Brenneke slug cartridges in India but I have seen what may be a Brenneke type slug cartridge called Mirage Clever (Italian). Just tried Googling it but did not come up with a link to this company. For some reason, I was under the impression that even Brenneke type slugs needed a bit of rifling for accurate shooting. Happy to learn that isn't the case.

What 'pattern percentage' (into a 30" circle at 40 yards) would you say is required for a gun to qualify as having cylinder and 1/4 chokes? Does 45% and 55%, respectively, sound right?

How accurate are choke gauges in determining the actual choke of a barrel. This is in case, I cannot pattern a prospective gun. Could you recommend one please? Is it possible that similar cartridges from different manufacturers can have vastly varying 'pattern percentages' or is the difference negligible?

Last but not least, what qualities should I be looking for when inspecting a shotgun. I have some idea but would rather someone with experience gives me a definitive list.

Thanks.

Mack The Knife

P.S.: A single barrel, whilst an option, is way back on the list for precisely the reason outlined by you.

[Grumpy]

Mack The Knife, I can`t remember what the actual constrictions are that determine the amount of choke but 45% and 55% seem rather tighter than cylinder and 1/4. There is a current thread re choke measurements in the IGC `Shotguns` category that will give you the figures though.
Choke gauges can only give an indication of the amount of choke as the actual choke is relative to the bore size. Guns with tight bores and a 1/4 choke will measure as if they have much tighter chokes with a choke gauge. Consider an overbored .740" barrel with 10 thou constriction - a choke gauge would indicate that as being just about Cylinder whilst a tight bored .719" barrel with 10 thou constriction would measure 3/4 to full. Both have the same amount of choke in practice however. Nominal 12-Bore is .729".
Why is an A5 a `restricted bore` ? Is it because of being a semi-auto ?
Is it impossible to import guns to India for residents ? It seems to me that you are all being ripped-off considerably as far as gun prices are concerned because of the restrictive laws.

[Mack The Knife]

Choke gauges can only give an indication of the amount of choke as the actual choke is relative to the bore size. Guns with tight bores and a 1/4 choke will measure as if they have much tighter chokes with a choke gauge. Consider an overbored .740" barrel with 10 thou constriction - a choke gauge would indicate that as being just about Cylinder whilst a tight bored .719" barrel with 10 thou constriction would measure 3/4 to full. Both have the same amount of choke in practice however. Nominal 12-Bore is .729"

Thanks a lot, Grumpy. Now that you mention it seems all so obvious.

Yes, the A5 is a restricted arm due to it being a semi-auto.

There are two ways for importing a firearm:

1) On transfer of residence, provided the 'gun' you have owned the 'gun' for at least one year. Import duty of 35% is applicable. Such a firearm may not be sold or gifted during the lifetime of the original owner.

2) By getting an import licence on the strength of getting a renowned shot certificate at the Nationals. This is given to the top twenty. Until a few years back it was top 10. There has been talk of increasing this number and perhaps it has already happened. All thanks to Naveen Jindal, though the NRAI will lay claim to that. The renowned shot certificate is valid for a year. The firearm to be imported has to be of a type for which the certificate was granted. A firearm imported in such a manner cannot be sold for two to five years - forget the actual number. Import duty is waived in such cases.

Although we are only halfway into 2006, your last remark earns you the understatement of the year award. It's a bloody nightmare over here.

Regards,

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

Um....Mack The Knife, didn`t you used to be resident in the UK ?........Isn`t it about time you had that gun you bought shipped back home ? It must be costing you a fair bit having been lodged with the dealer for so long...........................................................

[Mack The Knife]

Grumpy,

I wonder if you are confusing me with someone else.

I used to spend part of my summer vacations there but that's about it. Haven't been over since '97.

I have only bought the one firearm in my life - a rimfire rifle in Bangalore in 2004. I did have a few air-rifles, most of which were bought second hand on the AirgunBBS but these were kept for me by a couple of friends until I could arrange to have them brought back. Since that did not work out (waited for 4+ years), I have sold them, barring one.

Mack The Knife

[Sujay]

Mack The Knife,

If I remember correctly, the duty on firearms bought on transfer of
residence basis is 150%.

And the import by renowned shots is not automatically duty free. Alongwith the licence ( permit) to import, duty exemption certificate has to be obtained separately.

There is a provision in import laws that ANY rifle/shooting club affiliated
to NRAI can import air rifles and flat headed pellets, but do not know why no such clubs make use of that provision. ( Cannot locate the link immediately though).


Regards,

Sujay

[Mack The Knife]

You may well be right about the 150% duty. It was the old rate of duty as I recall.

Certainly did not know about the duty exemption having to be got seperately. I suppose this is issued by the DGFT? What a pain in the nether region!

There is a provision in import laws that ANY rifle/shooting club affiliated to NRAI can import air rifles and flat headed pellets, but do not know why no such clubs make use of that provision.

I'd imagine it's as much of a nightmare for them as it is for the individual shooter when it comes to procuring these licences.

Mack The Knife

[Sujay]

The duty of 150% is applicable to Firearms and 35% to Airguns.
Have been hearing that TR provision will be scrapped.

The import licence/ permit of the Air Rifle is issued by DGFT on the reccomendation of Ministry of Sports & Youth Affairs.

The duty exemption certificate is also issued by DGFT on similar
reccomendation ; one can go ahead if he is in a hurry. But most
will prefer to wait as the duty works up to a considerable amount on
top of the line equipments.

From what I have heard, the licence to import is quick once another
ministry takes the call; the part of duty exemption is a pain.

As about Rifle clubs, the thrust is mainly on ammo ( not pellets) and
it is rare to find persons to pursue the import of airguns and pellets
(theorizing). Majority lean to shotgun/skeet/traps which is the reason
for good overall knowledge of firearms but clueless about airguns.

[mehulkamdar]

Sujay/Mack The Knife,

If, indeed, any rifle club could import air rifles and pellets, if yu gentlemen have a club interested in doing this for a good number of target air rifles, it should be possible for someone here to negotiate a substantial discount and buy them and ship them to you. Considering that air rifle sports are going to be cheap and easy to conduct matches for (over here schools have them in their gyms and then they just move the targets away) it may be a good diea to talk to the clubs in question and arrange some group imports if someone on these baordscould take the initiative.

I would be more than happy to help with any correspondence/negotiations and shall pass on all the communication to you gentlemen for action at your end. Just let me know. Also, one member here could do the needful though I am not sure he deals in air rifles on a regular basis. I shall ask him offline if he would be interested in organising this though it would have to be a large buy for him to invest his very valuable time in this business.

Just let me know if I could help in any way. I am always more than happy to do this.

Cheers,

Mehul

[Mack The Knife]

Don't waste your time, Mehul. 9.9 times out of 10 it's all big talk and no action.

The only rifle association I would consider to be a serious buyer would be MRA (Maharashtra) but they would go via the NRAI.

Mack The Knife

[John]

Hi Tiger / Young Tger,

Sorry for the late reply, I've been more than a little busy over the last few days. I'll try to sort out the names as soon as I've finished this post. Many thanks!

Discussions have moved on, but Brenneke have a 1 oz slug that can be used in choked barrels, see http://www.dnrws.com/rottweil.html

Grumpy,

The Rotax wasn't a copy of the Brenneke, it was completely different, it was a lead cylinder and the "rifling" was on the inside!

Mehul,

I take your point about single barrels being much cheaper and in the price range that most farmers could afford in about 1947, but I was really referring to the better-off farmer kind of 1850-1950.

Now I'd better check this topic again!

[John]

Tiger / Young Tiger,

Mehul was right, it seems one can't change a username, one has to be deleted and then re-register.

[eljefe]

Betwen God ( masquerading as King Rusty) and Sat (termed by His Majesty as withered old fossil) it will be an intresting read to see the matchlock-muzzleloader shoot off!
Sir John of King Rusty's ex birthday list, you in yet?
Best Axx

[Grumpy]

Asif, I`ve just figured out that you are `eljefe`and was thinking that was a very strange user-name ......and then I realised - `El Jefe` - all hail the chief !
Ive been `here` a few days now - using my IGC username of `Grumpy` ( because I`m such a miserable ole git ! )
`Sir` John passed on the offer of a knighthood - King Rustys` notoriously cranky temper coupled with his passion for oversize cutlery persuaded me that I`d rather be a commoner with my head still attached !
Mack The Knife, you are such an honest gent.........I was trying to be subtle and offering you a means to an end !
John, thanks for the information on the Rodda slug - that is truly remarkable - a cylindrical slug with internal vanes ! Doesn`t sound too efficient ballistically but is gloriously Heath-Robinson. Have you any idea of what material the `slug` was made of ?

[Mack The Knife]

Mack The Knife, you are such an honest gent.........I was trying to be subtle and offering you a means to an end !

The living in England bit? If so, I am totally confused or having one of my super thick moments. Pray, elucidate o kinght of the realm...

E-mail's on the blink though. P.M.?

Mack The Knife