concealed carry...disturbing trend

[dev]

Okay as i really don't or haven't been excited over anything more than air weapons for a while I have been reading a lot over here about people who carry weapons.

What I say is not scientific but is what I have experienced in New Delhi. Why am I writing this because I feel my 15 years in Tae Kwon Do with six years in competition has taught me a bit about combat. Most scraps happen when you are least prepared and are probably sauntering around in an unsafe area.

What one has to keep in mind are basic things which have been written about by a lot of the western writers. Firstly, (this one hasn't) always park your car as far as you can near a well lit place. It is even worth paying the MCD tout for this. Secondly whenever you get out or get into your car try not to keep your back turned towards any direction for too long.

Thirdly, when you have a wife, girlfriend, sister etc in tow forget being macho. Your job is to eliminate all risk and not charge like a bull and have a tire iron wrapped around your skull. If this happens imagine what the uglies will do to those you were accompanying.

Yes Bruce lee kicks work very well in the training hall, but with adrenalin thumping through you...I have seen talented kickers falling on their face and then having it pounded by a guy who almost ran away at first after seeing the kicker's stance. Please understand that when someone is trying to get after your wife, GF etc. most likely they have a plan. My friend was having dinner at Nizam's kathis in Connaught Place when some yahoo's poured ketchup down his wive's blouse. Before he could go rushing with a punch his wife displayed amazing presence of mind by pulling him out of the joint. My friend later saw that there were six of them.

Fourth step please stay away from dingy joints when out with decent folks. I was quivering a little at dinner at Chanakya cinema a few days ago. Had the wife, mother-in-law in tow...yes mother-in-law should been a good weapon but. I realised that most guys in the small joints were having 'stimulating' colas. I luckily, knew the shop owner for years and knew that his bahadur would come charging out with the chopper if need be.

Another important factor is the crowd around you. A few guys in the martial arts network were surprised when the crowd held their hands as they were mistaken for the bad guys. So they got a few black eyes for trying to be heroes. What is even more scary is that someone who is tanked up on alcohol or drugs. I usta be a bouncer in a bar in the USA in the south side of town.

One night a brother took offence at us and had two football half backs on the floor in minutes. He was about five ten and these guys were six four and wide as tanks.They broke cue sticks on his head but he bit onto a guys ear and wouldn't let go till he heard the sirens. We even jabbed at his eye but nothing worked. We got to know later that he was high on PCP.
The pain numbing quality of alcohol I witnessed again when I was part of the Taj group's preventive security (read bouncer again).

At times being armed creates a feeling of confidence that is misplaced. I carried a nunchaku for years and the day I had to scare a bully away, one stick came off the chain! Luckily my brother's chinky looks and high kicks persuadeded him to look for easier targets. So guys please know your weapon...no offence to the experts but for those who have just decided to arm themselves with a cosh.

I would like to end by pretending to be my good Doc friend Asif lecturing his patients, 'remember that prevention is better than the cure'.

Regards,

Dev

[Sakobav]

Nice post dev
My favourite movie "RUN LOLA RUN" and try keeping the wits around you and look out for lamp poles..

cheers
Navdeep

[mehulkamdar]

Dev,

In the US, while gun ownership is permitted in most states and concealed carry in all but two - Illinois and Wisconsin - the fact is that getting a concealed carry license is not only a difficult task, it is something that requires the license holder to go through psychological evaluation and marksmanship tests before they can get this permit. It is not an easy affair at all. As a matter of fact, I doubt that there are any statistics at all about crimes having been committed by CCW permit holders because the numbers are tiny, if at all there are any.

Mehul

[dev]

Hi Mehul,

My idea was to write about common self defense situations. I am aware about concealed carry policies in the USA and how much training it takes. I was using the term losely in the Indian Context to include all sorts of weapons and not necessarily hand guns. I am also not hinting that people with CCW permits indulge in nefarious activities.

(May I burn in a non venison kebab hell if I do so .)

I am just worried that some one who has had no combat training or experience may feel overly confident with say an air pistol in his hip. What I am trying to share is my fear that one may rush into a situation that one isn't prepared for.


Regards,

Dev

Dev,

In the US, while gun ownership is permitted in most states and concealed carry in all but two - Illinois and Wisconsin - the fact is that getting a concealed carry license is not only a difficult task, it is something that requires the license holder to go through psychological evaluation and marksmanship tests before they can get this permit. It is not an easy affair at all. As a matter of fact, I doubt that there are any statistics at all about crimes having been committed by CCW permit holders because the numbers are tiny, if at all there are any.

Mehul

[mundaire]

Dev,

I have had a shotty on my license since I was 18, and got the .45 at age 21... If anything, I seemed to get myself involved in fewer scraps post-gun ownership than pre! Also, especially compared to my other teenage friends, I suddenly discovered a well of patience and responsibility... tending to avoid needless confrontation and usually preferring to defuse silly situations. I have written a bit more on this on my site (www.abhijeetsingh.com).

Of course this completely varies from person to person, but I firmly believe that anyone who is properly taught the responsibilities involved in owning a gun and the safety aspects, would have a similar attitude.

In a round about way, the old "Kshatriya" (warrior class of India) code was quite sensible in that it quite clearly stated that a weapon once unsheathed MUST taste blood! This necessarily meant that the warriors of yore would only pull out their weapons if they were certain of using it, not for silly bandying around, which is more than likely to create more trouble instead of the intended purpose of diffusing a volatile situation.

How strictly tenets of this code were followed is mostly conjecture, but even simple common sense and gun safety norms dictate that you should NEVER point a gun at someone/ something unless you fully well intend to destroy the target. Also, pulling out a gun to get "respect" (a la Mr. Manu Sharma of the Jessica Lal murder infamy) - is a sure fire recipe for disaster. No one gets "respect" for brandishing a gun! Only a complete moron like Manu Sharma could come up with such a silly idea

On avoiding potentially disastrous situations, on many counts your advice is quite sound. In 338 B.C. Demosthenes is credited with coining the adage -

"HE WHO FIGHTS AND RUNS AWAY WILL LIVE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY."

A tactical retreat is many times the best strategy!

Mostly though, before getting into a scrap a sensible person should ask themselves, if they are getting into it simply to satisfy their "ego" or if there is actually a real "self-defence" situation unfolding. If one has the option of walking away - then it is most often than not the former, and a sensible mature person (even if he/ she is better armed than the opposition) would walk away!

There is a lady pro-gunner from USA who says it very elegantly on her site www.corneredcat.com.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[dev]

I got my .22 at eighteen when I was quite hot headed. I was all set to buy a ruger government mark 1 or 2. But an uncle tempted me to get a rifle. I think the wise man saved me a lot of grief.

The code of the warrior is almost the same everywhere, in Bushido they say the same thing about the dai katana, the blade only tastes silk or blood.

Our sensei wasn't into oaths but he did say that if you got into a scrap only one must walk away. Same as in the westerns where they talk about never pulling out the pistola unless you mean to shoot and you don't shoot unless you mean to kill.

Regards,

Dev

Regards,

Dev

[eljefe]

Guys,
The best weapon is between my ears-after that, learn to RUN- more so if you are packing.All I want to have, is the pleasure of owning fine guns for a long time to come- if I'm carrying one and run into a situation, all the more reason to get out of there ASAP.
I Got my pistol lic when I was 18 and have owned several, made a responsible gun owner out of me-That I can attest to.
Many licenced gun owners I've met, share my passion, and importantly;attitude.I have also met the gung ho types, for whom, owning a weapon is the ultimate prestige niche in life. He probably wants the world to know he's an armed man, and (inherently) dangerous too.(just as his wife has the inherent capability to be a prostitute??)-probably has had a few knocks in life, now he's made it big and has the SP over for drinks and wangled himself a 12 shotty or a 32 IOF licence.Havent we heard this one before?
Best
Axx

[Kshatriya]

I agree with eljefe. I, for one, have experienced instances when packing, when I have consciously made the decision to move away from a confrontation. Many a times it is the best strategy, when the situation is not life threatening but can snowball into a major legal hassle if one decides to use one's options.
There is a very thin line between what is considered a "justifiable use of force" & what's not, at least here in U.P.
Here, the more a person brandishes his carry, the more he is venereated & since there are no " Concealed Carry" laws as in U.S., any arms owner can carry his/her gun openly in public without any restriction.There are times when the state government promulgates an ordinance/order banning it, but soon it is back to being as usual.
Sure as hell, u can teach a person how to use a weapon, but how to be a responsible gun owner is an altogether another matter.
U would be surprised how may people who own firearms are not even conversant with the basic rules of firearms safety.
As long as no mandatory firearm training is required before one is furnished with a firearm licence, the situation is gonna prevail.

[HSharief]

I've heard and read in all my interactions with this subject that the first responsibility of an armed individual in a confrontation is to retreat. (Read Duty to Retreat)

However, its interesting that some states in the US are passing a "Stand your ground" law. (Read Stand your Ground Law) If I were alone, I'd "probably" Stand my ground but if my loved ones are with me, their safety can only be assured by getting them out of harms way.

[mundaire]

Sharief,

Very interesting, quite enjoyed reading the Wiki entries , the links to which you had posted.

Not sure, but would be interesting to know what the relevant statutes/ case law in India has to say about this.

Anyone?

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Sakobav]

Great read Sharief .. These days I am searching more on wiki then google..
Rgds

[axp817]

Thanks for the links Sharief.

I commend the States that have passed the "Stand your ground" law. Contrary to what the gun-control loons have to say, it actually 'protects' law abiding citizens who have to use deadly force in protecting themselves on their own property, in the sense that there are less worries of having to prove your act of self defense when an intruder enters your home with an intention to harm.

I do agree with the "Duty to retreat" way of thinking, but only to a certain extent.

Let me give a few examples.

1. I am confronted on the street by a thug with a knife, he is a few feet away from me, and I make it clear to him that I have a gun and have every intention of using it if he comes any closer or does not leave. He, being a smart thug, understands and takes off. In that situation, I will not shoot him, noticing that the threat has subsided.

2. I run into a convenience store to get a drink, and notice two guys break into my car and steal my laptop, and take off. I immediately run out of the store and have a very clear shot at them, but I don't shoot. They posed no threat to my life and it is my duty to retreat/not use deadly force in this situation.

3. I am sleeping in my bedroom and am woken by sounds in the living room. I turn the lights on, grab my Sig and carefully/tactically (Guns and Ammo T.V., latest episode ) walk into the next room and come face to face with the intruder. I notice that he has a machete in hand and a handgun like object tucked into his waist band. I also notice that he hasn't advanced towards me on seeing me, but he also hasn't retreated. I draw my gun and point it right at his lower abdomen and tell him that I will shoot, he doesn't retreat, but still doesn't advance, and tries running into the kitchen, which is adjacent to the living room. My adrenalin is at an all time high, and seeing that he is not interested in getting out of my house, and not wanting to take any chances of getting into a gun fight with him (in case he decides to take cover in the kitchen and draw that gun like object tucked in his waist), I empty the entire magazine into him, 8 rounds of .45 ACP JHPs.

If this were to happen in India, I would probably spend the rest of my life explaining why I harmed an unknown person in my house who somehow got in, in the middle of the night, with a gun and a machete. To them, he could have been a traveller asking for directions.

This is exactly the situation that the "Stand your ground" law aims to defend.

The wiki page, has a link at the bottom, to a Commie-loser created site called "licensetomurder.com" - sheesh. If you want to offer your head in sacrifice to the intruder, be my guest, but don't expect me to do so. These punks are only showing their ignorance by calling an act of self defense, murder.

Of course, like Sharief said, if there was any risk to family or any other human around, retreating would be the best thing to do.

my 2 cents,
N

[Vikram]

That is a very well written post Naren.Taking into view the practical situations and showing maximum restraint and judgment.My compliments.

If this were to happen in India, I would probably spend the rest of my life explaining why I harmed an unknown person in my house who somehow got in, in the middle of the night, with a gun and a machete. To them, he could have been a traveller asking for directions

Here, if you would allow, I would differ. Despite all the petty bureaucratic mentalities, in many cases when intruders were shot or killed or otherwise, cases against those defending their own lives,property etc, were not registered. Yes, a few cases to the contrary have always been there. In Hyderabad and in the interior districts, during my misspent years of juvenile delinquency,police used to issue notices that if dacoits were shot or killed, no cases would be registered. They even helped issue firearms licenses to many people.That still holds true in many places. Of course, again ineptitude occupies equal space.

Even in US, where the "Castle doctrine" has been in place in most states, if you shoot some one, even in a situation of grave danger, the courts and cases will effectively take a huge bite into your time,money and hence career. The parents of the perp can file a suit against you on the grounds of unwarranted use of lethal force. It's not easy to shoot someone and get out of it. Whether we shoot someone in the crux is altogether a different matter. Simply put, shooting someone and getting out of it is not easy whatever might be the threat, either in India or in US.
You shoot someone in UK even during a robbery,ask Grumpy what happens.

Having gone through my share of scraps, I won't deny that I enjoyed some of them, most often showing discretion is the best thing one can do. Having loved ones nearby is the worst time one can decide to fight back unless an attack is made on them. Walking away is a very good policy. If alone, I just am not sure I would do that.JMHO.

Best-

Vikram

[Vikram]

BTW, Dev, that is an exciting life you had. Hard and dangerous life albeit, exciting surely.

Best-
Vikram

[axp817]

Here, if you would allow, I would differ. Despite all the petty bureaucratic mentalities, in many cases when intruders were shot or killed or otherwise, cases against those defending their own lives,property etc, were not registered. Yes, a few cases to the contrary have always been there. In Hyderabad and in the interior districts, during my misspent years of juvenile delinquency,police used to issue notices that if dacoits were shot or killed, no cases would be registered. They even helped issue firearms licenses to many people.That still holds true in many places. Of course, again ineptitude occupies equal space.

True, my example was an extreme situation, glad to know that it is not always true.

Even in US, where the "Castle doctrine" has been in place in most states, if you shoot some one, even in a situation of grave danger, the courts and cases will effectively take a huge bite into your time,money and hence career. The parents of the perp can file a suit against you on the grounds of unwarranted use of lethal force. It's not easy to shoot someone and get out of it. Whether we shoot someone in the crux is altogether a different matter. Simply put, shooting someone and getting out of it is not easy whatever might be the threat, either in India or in US.
You shoot someone in UK even during a robbery,ask Grumpy what happens.

Vikram, that is exactly what the stand your ground law helps protect against - not having to spend time and money trying to explain your act of self defense, especially one performed on your own property, unless the situation is a highly complex one (intruder didn't have any weapons, and did absolutely nothing that could put your life in danger).

You are right about the intruder's kin dragging one to court, although that is not as common in cases of home intrusion, attempted robbery, murder, etc.

True story - an intruder tried climbing into a building but the stairway/window (or whatever it was) gave way, and broke, he fell and injured himself. His family tried suing the building maintenance folks complaining that the construction wasn't up to code. Of course, the jury tossed the case out and he was jail bait.

Walking away, definitely is the best policy in most cases, where the threat to your life is not imminent.

I have heard from Grumpy about England's views on self-defense. I don't agree with them.

BTW, I was/am a HUGE fan of Calvin and Hobbes.

-N