defensive loads for shotguns

[eljefe]

John,
Was looking for 'big and slow'- reduced charge and trim the shell size down to 2" (use a roll over die ) no chance of getting factory ones...
But even if I have to use birdshot like 4 or 6, will still reduce charge.The weapon I am looking for is a 12 pump or a short barrel 12,with a pistol grip from the factory, made locally by a compant called Dwarka Arms.Would prefer a reduced charge shell for this one , dont know how much control it'll have with a 2.75" shell and I'm not going to EDM a recoil reducer right now
Best
Axx

[penpusher]

Would prefer a reduced charge shell for this one , dont know how much control it'll have with a 2.75" shell

Good idea,unless you want a sprained/ broken wrist.But why put your life or limb at risk with all this experimentation.It's not worth it.Get a good shotgun,one that has been cared for, with a 28" or 30" barrel.Longer barreled shotguns(30" or more) are somehower cheaper and the long barrel is no hinderance , unless you want to clear trenches or tunnels from bad guys At the risk of repeating myself,I suggest that you get a run of the mill hammer shotgun in good condition proofed for nitro without safety,if you are on a budget.The one advantage would be that you can leave it loaded without any fear of accidental discharge( no cocked hammers on a loaded chamber).

Take care,
penpusher

[mundaire]

Would prefer a reduced charge shell for this one , dont know how much control it'll have with a 2.75" shell and I'm not going to EDM a recoil reducer right now

Asif,

You probably might have already given this some thought - but will put in my $0.02 anyway. Why not consider a 16 gauge? AFAIK Shaktiman & IOFB both make 16 gauge ammo now a days, though sourcing it might prove to be somewhat harder than 12 gauge ammo (which is in stock with pretty much every dealer here).

That said, imported 16 gauge shotguns are substantially cheaper than 12 gauge ones, so you will get a lower powered round (as desired by you) AND probably be able to buy a better gun... for a given budget...

HTH
Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Vikram]

John,
Was looking for 'big and slow'- reduced charge and trim the shell size down to 2" (use a roll over die ) no chance of getting factory ones...
But even if I have to use birdshot like 4 or 6, will still reduce charge.The weapon I am looking for is a 12 pump or a short barrel 12,with a pistol grip from the factory, made locally by a compant called Dwarka Arms.Would prefer a reduced charge shell for this one , dont know how much control it'll have with a 2.75" shell and I'm not going to EDM a recoil reducer right now
Best
Axx

Jefe,

Would it be possible for you to test shoot such a gun you describe?See if you can shoot comfortably with reasonable level of accuracy.Then, loads may not be an issue. Also, apart from safety issues, I am concerned about the reliability of such rounds.Misfires,shell bursts etc. The spake the wise ass.

Best-
Vikram

[Grumpy]

Asif I have this strange feeling ( - it happens every now and then - ) that I`m living in a parallel universe. You know what you mean - and why - and I understand the words but they make no sense to me.
When you say you want to `reduce the charge` do you mean the amount of powder ( which is what a `reduced charge` generally means ) or the shot load ? If the former then DON`T. If the latter why cut back the case ? All you have to do is pour out some of the shot and replace them with some fibre wadding - or even discs of newspaper - behind the shot. You`ll make clouds of confetti if you decide on the latter. BUT why reduce the `charge` anyway ? Why not use a 1 oz cartridge - instead of a 1 1/8 oz ( or heavier ) cartridge ? Where is all this heavy recoil coming from anyway ? Normal game loads do not produce heavy recoil.......and in a shotgun fitted with a pistol grip you`ll have plenty of control. You`re not planning on using the shotgun as a pistol are you ? Waving it around one handed ? If you are then forget about using a shotgun and get a pistol instead. The only way you could control a shotgun properly one handed is to cut the barrels back considerably - and remove the butt. Even with all that weight removed the felt recoil isn`t going to be excessive ( considerable but not excessive ) and the actual recoil exactly the same.
The length of the case has no bearing on the recoil produced. What determines the actual recoil is the powder, powder charge and the weight of the shot. A 2 1/2" case loaded to the same specs as a 2 3/4" case produces the same performance. A wide range of shot weight is available in both 2 1/2" cartridges and 2 3/4 cartridges - and yes, increasing the weight of shot will increase the recoil providing the same powder ( and same amount of powder ) is used so just use one with a lighter weight of shot. If you are really recoil sensitive use subsonic 1 oz cartridges......a five year old could `control` the recoil they produce.

[Mark]

I don't know if this is applicable here or not but the main reason here in the states for using 2" shells for home defence is that you can fit more of them in a tubular magazine.

Inside a house, even 1/2 oz of shot will pack a wallop.

[Grumpy]

Yup, you can get an extra 2" cartridge in the mag for every three 2 3/4". How many shots do people anticipate letting off in a house ? And how many shredded sofas do they want ? ..... or holes in the walls ?
Sounds like an issue of firepower Mark. Firepower used to mean how much bang per shot but was then adapted by certain ( US ) types to mean how many rounds you can let off in any particular engagement. Hence the adoption of the AR15/M16 .223 instead of the .308 M14 and the high cap Beretta 92 9mm instead of the 1911A1 - both of which have proved singularly ineffective in Iraq with the result that `mothballed` M14s and 1911A1s have been reissued.
Yes, even a 1/2 oz of shot will do a lot of damage in the close confines of a house.......but then you might as well use a .410 rather than a 12-Bore. NOBODY advocates the use of the .410 as a self-defence gun. I`d rather smack somebody hard with at least an ounce of shot rather than `tickle` them with half an ounce !

[Mark]

I most certainly agree on the firepower issue, it is a decision made by bureaucrats! It is easy to say "This gun holds 17 and your old gun only holds 8" and another thing to have someone who uses them say "I'd rather have 8 of these than 20 of those!"

Never monkeyed with an M14 I have to say, if it is even close to the weight of the Garand I'd imagine it would be hard to carry across a rice paddy without sinking to your elbows! Agreed on the 223, too bad the AR10 was not chosen, that is one I'm familiar with and it is quite a nice weapon.

I remember when the M92 was chosen and thought what a stupid move that was. It makes sense logistically and saves some money when you aren't actually in a war but when the shooting starts nobody wants a 9 if a 45 is available.

[Grumpy]

I couldn`t agree more - if the bureaucrats hadn`t become involved - and the politicians ( there were all sorts of shenanigans involved with the adoption of the M92 ) - and extra capacity was an issue then logic would have dictated that the logical successor to the 1911A1 .45acp was a double stack 1911 .45 acp. Logic often has lttle to do with military procurement though.....
I once owned an M14 National Match.......a superb piece of kit. Then centrefire semi-auto rifles ( except for .22rf ) were banned in the UK......
You`re right - it was a heavy old lump -around 10 lbs.

[mehulkamdar]

When my old shooting buddy in Appleton, Wayne Nitz started collecting WW-1 and 2 rifles, he bought a beautiful Garand from the CMP. I remember his father's reaction when he saw the rifle - the old man had fought in the war in Europe and detested it - with a completely perplexed expression on his face, he asked Wayne, "What do you want one of them crowbars for?" He would agree with Mark's sinking in a paddy field description very readily if someone discussed Vietnam with him.

To come back on topic, I do think that a hammer double in 12 bore would be a lovely home defence gun, even if it was loaded with small bird shot. A pump would be better, but in the Indian context, pumps are difficult to procure and require a PB license. I would request Asif and other friends considering these possibilities to do a gunny sack test with a 12 bore at 10 and 15 yards with even small sized shot. They could then report their experience here for us. I can;t find gunny in the US but if I get to Mark's place sometime, we'll try a similar experiment and take pictures to post over here.

Cheers!

[mundaire]

A pump would be better, but in the Indian context, pumps are difficult to procure and require a PB license.

Mehul,

I could be mistaken (Sukpreet, please jump in and correct me if wrong) but pump actions do not require a PB license. However a PB license is required in the case of auto-loaders/ semi-auto long guns (shotguns or rifles).

The problem is that the only Indian made pump action is made by IOFB, who AFAIK seem unwilling to sell it to civillians! Also, imported pump actions are few and far between...

There have also been problems reported with people using short brass Indian made ammo in pumps & auto loaders...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[penpusher]

Mehul,

A 12 ga pump actioin shotgun with a 20'' barrel or longer is not a prohibited firearm ( any smooth bore gun with a barrel length of less than 20" is however prohibited)

The IOF chaps have no problem selling their Pump to a licensee, but are not doing so because of a letter from the Home Ministry. Probably issued by a Babu who had seen too many movies.Pump action shotguns are also expensive compared to a regular hammer shoty,which are not in great demand.

Only semi-auto , auto , .410 bore shotguns and shotguns witha barrel length less than 20" are prohibited.Bolt action,lever action and pump action shotguns are not prohibited.

Take care,
penpusher

[Kshatriya]

penpusher, u'r right. PA 12 bore is no longer advertised in the "Sporting Arms" section of the OFB website.Is there any real truth in the notion that they were functionally deficient & that jamming was common.
Would u recommend getting it second hand one?

[eljefe]

Getting better and better!
great guys, THANKS for the inspiration and advice...Grumpy, the parallel universe is pure Douglas, I hear you...
When I said reduced load, I meant both-shot and powder. Looking at half charge powder and 1/2 oz to 3/4 oz shot load.
And a 2" shell purely to differentiate a full house load from a lighter load.
How do the boards resound??
Best
Axx

[Mark]

I think that would be removing a bit too much powder,I think 10% would be a bit closer.

Smokeless is a bit different than black powder in that the burning rate is a function of the pressure, so the load/pressure graph is more of a horizontal line then climbing up X axis at the end instead of being similar to black powder where there is more of a linear relationship.