Revolver or Pistol

[vjha55]

I am collecting revolver from FGK, which has a less waiting period of around 20 to 25 days. SAF will take at least two months. These waiting times are for booking with full amt i.e Rs 62,720/-. Booking with Rs6,000/- will mean another month in waiting.

[paragvns]

I've herd theSAF revolvers are better than the FGF hence the longer waiting period despite more production at the SAF
any comments

Parag

[vjha55]

Although IOF doesnt tell you that there could be any difference, but people like us realise that FGK revolver is better, not because I am getting from there. In fact I opted for FGK precisely on quality basis and not for lesser waiting time.
Let me tell you more--- from 1st of April price will be hiked by nearly Rs 15000/- with slight imrovement in quality.

[paragvns]

any comments about the product quality of SAF vs FGF
Parag

[eljefe]

Although IOF doesnt tell you that there could be any difference, but people like us realise that FGK revolver is better, not because I am getting from there. .

Whats the major QC differences between the two manufacturers? any precise details?

[Grumpy]

"dunno why we Indians have this moth eaten fixation with the Webley & Scott design anyway...."

You know, that`s a really good question.

I think it`s both cultural and political.

Restrictions on firearms useage - including hunting - definitely seems to curtail innovation. You need a culture in which people are actually - and actively - interested in firearms and their use.
We British haven`t really produced anything innovatory since the early 1950s..... and handgun design effectively ceased prior to WWI. Just look at how restrictive our firearms laws are .....................
In India the IOF seems concerned only with copying other designs ...... and doing so very poorly. The Japanese built their post-war economy on producing cheap copies of products but soon learned that quality sold more product. They build some excellent sporting guns ( almost exclusively for export ) but innovate virtually nothing........and have extremely restrictive firearms legislation. India seems to be stuck in a rut of producing poor quality, derivative designs - as far as firearms are concerned anyway. Restricting the availability of firearms by import restrictions and - as a direct consequence - price coupled with the fact that hunting is banned and shooting sports generally are effectively elitist is bound to curtail creativity because the `interest` in the subject is limited to very few.
There`s no doubt that certain cultures are more effective at producing innovatory firearms designs......and applying excellent quality control. The Czechs are an example post WWI. South Africa has a strong tradition of both firearms ownership and hunting and this is reflected in the guns that they managed to produce in the years of economic sanctions caused by apartheid. The Germans are producing high quality military and civilian designs................. The French continue in their own eccentric way. Even the Swiss.......although their bizarre laws mean that most production has to take place outside the country. The USA has the greatest gun `culture` of all.

CC, that was a very thought-provoking one-liner.

[Sakobav]

Check this article on DRDO failure and their astounding achievements.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jan/15guest.htm

"The DRDO actually produces in its Tezpur laboratory orchids and mushrooms, identifies the sharpest chili in the world with pride, while its lab in Pithoragarh develops hybrid varieties of cucumber, tomato and capsicum. It spends merrily from the defence budget on developing new strains of Angora rabbits and 'Namkeen Herbal Tea'! DRDO by indulging in such irrelevant activities lost its focus and sight of its primary responsibility"

This is just like NASA who also spun off Microwave and other nice things so whats the problem with DRDO working on herbal Tea no?

Any Guess what IOFB factories churn out in addition to Guns?

[cottage cheese]

"dunno why we Indians have this moth eaten fixation with the Webley & Scott design anyway...."

You know, that`s a really good question.

I think it`s both cultural and political.

Restrictions on firearms useage - including hunting - definitely seems to curtail innovation. You need a culture in which people are actually - and actively - interested in firearms and their use.
We British haven`t really produced anything innovatory since the early 1950s..... and handgun design effectively ceased prior to WWI. Just look at how restrictive our firearms laws are .....................
In India the IOF seems concerned only with copying other designs ...... and doing so very poorly. The Japanese built their post-war economy on producing cheap copies of products but soon learned that quality sold more product. They build some excellent sporting guns ( almost exclusively for export ) but innovate virtually nothing........and have extremely restrictive firearms legislation. India seems to be stuck in a rut of producing poor quality, derivative designs - as far as firearms are concerned anyway. Restricting the availability of firearms by import restrictions and - as a direct consequence - price coupled with the fact that hunting is banned and shooting sports generally are effectively elitist is bound to curtail creativity because the `interest` in the subject is limited to very few.
There`s no doubt that certain cultures are more effective at producing innovatory firearms designs......and applying excellent quality control. The Czechs are an example post WWI. South Africa has a strong tradition of both firearms ownership and hunting and this is reflected in the guns that they managed to produce in the years of economic sanctions caused by apartheid. The Germans are producing high quality military and civilian designs................. The French continue in their own eccentric way. Even the Swiss.......although their bizarre laws mean that most production has to take place outside the country. The USA has the greatest gun `culture` of all.

CC, that was a very thought-provoking one-liner.

Thundering response Grumps!.... Knowing the underground gun culture thats more prevalent here, I should expect very innovative illegals!

The Czech stuff were superb and were well ahead of their time.

As for us Indians, the rut is not only with innovation, manufacturing but also in the end user's preference. Hardly surprising.

As I read elsewhere on many occasions, even with the availability of superb and better revolvers many still go for the W&S... Obly aend Eeskaat as many here would call it! Even when they could import pre-1986 and in rare cases thereafter, it's still W&S most of the time! Read somewhere the article about customs seized arms being allotted to politicos and babus, the list was mostly W&S- which gives a healthy clue on what people were and are still trying to import

[cottage cheese]

Check this article on DRDO failure and their astounding achievements.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jan/15guest.htm

"The DRDO actually produces in its Tezpur laboratory orchids and mushrooms, identifies the sharpest chili in the world with pride, while its lab in Pithoragarh develops hybrid varieties of cucumber, tomato and capsicum. It spends merrily from the defence budget on developing new strains of Angora rabbits and 'Namkeen Herbal Tea'! DRDO by indulging in such irrelevant activities lost its focus and sight of its primary responsibility"

This is just like NASA who also spun off Microwave and other nice things so whats the problem with DRDO working on herbal Tea no?

Any Guess what IOFB factories churn out in addition to Guns?

On... seems to be going OT... but hell can't resist this one..

They should sub-contract manufacture of Avon, Oriflame, Mary-Kay, or perhaps even Amway...that will keep the hordes of semi-skilled workers occupied while they wait for the babus to clear the next lot arms to manufacture...

[vjha55]

Dear Grumpy this is for you

You appear to be having tremendous dislike for Indian copying shoddily in manufacturing revolver/pistol.
Have you given a thought to the reason behind all this?
Same Indians who are doing great job in advancing in the realm of space, IT, and even defence, are not doing enough when it comes to manufacturing revolver or pistol. You know government here does not want to arm its civillins with advanced firearms( behind the concept of PB and NPB) because in times of trouble securityforces do have to face same firearms of civillians. This single reason is behind the restriction of firearms import and production duty given to IOF solely. Same IOF does marvellous job in advancing defence related technonlgy.
So, guys, dont make such comments as INDIANS Copying etc.

Dear Grumpy please stop groaning about almost everything.

[cottage cheese]

Actually...I'm beginning to see this thing go OT again...

You appear to be having tremendous dislike for Indian copying shoddily in manufacturing revolver/pistol. Have you given a thought to the reason behind all this?

I'll answer for Grumpy, in nicer words. Yes, its not only Grumpy, its me and a lot of like minded people as well who think the same....and what other reason than the obvious fact that we Indians are shoddily copying revolvers/pistol...and all other firearms as well. You put the answer before the question.

Same Indians who are doing great job in advancing in the realm of space, IT, and even defence,

Like other developed nations aren't.... certainly we are making strides... mostly in the private sector. Defence is a government affair and the truth is, it is a big farcical natak. It is this that we openly and consistently criticize. If you don't see what ails our defence industry, do take some time to read and research some of the more unflattering reports.

You know government here does not want to arm its civillins with advanced firearms( behind the concept of PB and NPB) because in times of trouble securityforces do have to face same firearms of civillians. This single reason is behind the restriction of firearms import and production duty given to IOF solely.

vjha, if you take the time and trouble to actually think, this is exactly what our colonial masters wanted to happen - a docile, meek, unarmed population that can be easily stomped on if the need arises. Looks like it suits our Government that this policy continues. In effect, the Government of India is still geared for running a colony.

A government that is perpetually afraid of its own population is obviously doing something wrong.

From your statement, I assume this is an ideal situation for you.

Same IOF does marvellous job in advancing defence related technonlgy.
So, guys, dont make such comments as INDIANS Copying etc.

Too much to say on this yaar.... somebody please explain this to mr.vjha.

Dear Grumpy please stop groaning about almost everything.

You should include me and a lot of people here as well... no need to single out Grumpy.
...and yes, the groaning about everything will continue till we see nice goodies being turned out of our charlatan defence industries.

You should too, you know: it could be good for you... the IOF just might finally decide to produce a decent revolver...who knows... in 357magnum... Wouldn't you like to own a 357 or a 44 revolver... something really nice for a change. Groan about the restrictive laws too. You never know, something good might come out of it.

[amk]

"dunno why we Indians have this moth eaten fixation with the Webley & Scott design anyway...."

CC, that was a very thought-provoking one-liner.

Thundering response Grumps!.... Knowing the underground gun culture thats more prevalent here, I should expect very innovative illegals!

The Czech stuff were superb and were well ahead of their time.

As for us Indians, the rut is not only with innovation, manufacturing but also in the end user's preference. Hardly surprising.

As I read elsewhere on many occasions, even with the availability of superb and better revolvers many still go for the W&S... Obly aend Eeskaat as many here would call it! Even when they could import pre-1986 and in rare cases thereafter, it's still W&S most of the time! Read somewhere the article about customs seized arms being allotted to politicos and babus, the list was mostly W&S- which gives a healthy clue on what people were and are still trying to import

Cottage Cheese; I don't think the W&S is the no. 1 choice in urban areas. In fact it is derided and difficult to sell and also probably the cheapest amongst the .32 revolvers. I know a dealer who has 3 of them for the past few months, interested in a deal?

AMK

[mundaire]

BTW - the IOFB .32 revolver is a copy of the Enfield revolver (and not the Webley). The Enfield revolver though similar in looks was decidedly inferior to the Webley product... Google it for more info...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[hamiclar01]

Same Indians who are doing great job in advancing in the realm of ........... and even defence............ Same IOF does marvellous job in advancing defence related technonlgy.

just wait a cotton picking, tutu wearing moment there! you actually BELIEVE all you've written there? so you actually believe all the treacle being shoved down our throats? IOF superiority? strides in defence?

in fact, the single biggest hurdle in development are the very people you are gloating on. passing on sub standard stuff to our jawans while merrily pocketing hefty commissions. if we have made such great strides in defense and armaments, why has the army consistently rejected the arjuna MBT? and pray, why is the air force still made up of foreign jets, can't see any tejas around.

Grumpy has called a spade a spade. if you want to bury your head in the sand , so be it.

[cottage cheese]

Cottage Cheese; I don't think the W&S is the no. 1 choice in urban areas. In fact it is derided and difficult to sell and also probably the cheapest amongst the .32 revolvers. I know a dealer who has 3 of them for the past few months, interested in a deal?

Hi AMK,
You do have a point, and certainly its not No.1 but again its still very popular. A wider look will reveal that it sits high on the 'must-get' category through quite a bit of the country. Would be somewhat a bit off to distinguish urban and otherwise too distinctly.

Anyway, I was simply meaning that the proportion of W&S and relations in legal circulation in India is large.

Naaah... don't like break-opens unless if its a Schoefield