IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

[Vikram]

Longtime no see Danish.How ya been?

Grumps, that rifle looks not to be an IOF make.At least from what I have seen.As you said,it does raise some interesting points.

Best-
Vikram

[penpusher]

Apparently similar bores or caliber designations does not mean that they are the same.The fact that IOF .315 cartridge can be fired in the rifle does not mean that the rifle was originally chambered for it.I have seen a 11x60R Mauser 1871 that was also purportedly able to fire a IOF .315 cartridge and was being sold as having been 'converted' to IOF .315.Thsi rifle was there at Vohra Gun House,Ferozepur.

Putting a stamp on the barrel is also pretty easy.The fact that there are 2 stamps ,one mentioning the caliber in mm and the other in inches also raises the chances of a later conversion.I have seen a rifle apparently made by an English gun maker(it is there on internetgunclub.com and I have forgotten which dealer the rifle was attributed to,probably WR) but which was in fact a Mannlicher-Schönauer with the rotary magazine replaced by a box one and the barrel bored out to 32-40.The rough bore(it was not even bored true) and the cobbled together magazine pointed to the conversion having been undertaken in India itself.This was with MS Arms,Ludhiana.Though to be fair to the chap,he was only selling it on the original owners behalf

[mundaire]

Apparently similar bores or caliber designations does not mean that they are the same.The fact that IOF .315 cartridge can be fired in the rifle does not mean that the rifle was originally chambered for it.I have seen a 11x60R Mauser 1871 that was also purportedly able to fire a IOF .315 cartridge and was being sold as having been 'converted' to IOF .315.Thsi rifle was there at Vohra Gun House,Ferozepur.

Putting a stamp on the barrel is also pretty easy.The fact that there are 2 stamps ,one mentioning the caliber in mm and the other in inches also raises the chances of a later conversion.I have seen a rifle apparently made by an English gun maker(it is there on internetgunclub.com and I have forgotten which dealer the rifle was attributed to,probably WR) but which was in fact a Mannlicher-Schönauer with the rotary magazine replaced by a box one and the barrel bored out to 32-40.The rough bore(it was not even bored true) and the cobbled together magazine pointed to the conversion having been undertaken in India itself.This was with MS Arms,Ludhiana.Though to be fair to the chap,he was only selling it on the original owners behalf

All accepted, but penpusher it seems from the link you provided to the discussion on the cartridge collectors forum, the BSA 8mm Lee-Enfield/ Lee-Speed actioned rifles were chambered for the 8x50R Mannlicher cartridge... and from the ongoing discussion here we seem to be zeroing in on that being the "original" progenitor of the .315 IOF cartridge... It does seem like we are finally getting somewhere as to the antecedents of this supposedly "original" IOF creation.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[shahid]

Abhijeet - on the .315 Indian cartridge too .315 and 8 mm is mentioned. Atleast it was when I used to purchase these cartridges frequently till 1994, now what is printed on new factory loads whether all metric or combine of metric / imperial I am not sure.

My uncle Mr. M A Rahman had sent his .315 to Ichapore in 2005 and it came with a new barrel and totally reconditioned. It was done with the help of a friend in the IOF factory. THis rifle has always had a spare magazine as well, a thing rather rare in India. During the period of high naxal insurgency whenever I went out in the night i the jungles I used to carry this spare magazine and a full box of 10 cartridges in my other jacket pocket, besides 5 in the mag and 1 in the chamber.

Grouping results at Bihar Military Police outdoor range in 1990.
Open original IOF IRON sights of 100 and 300 yards.

100 yards - 10 shots fired 3 inch group.
300 yards - 10 shots fired 11 1/2 inch group

COnditions - rested on Jeep bonnet.
Cross wind moderate
Range was outdoors
Month of February. Temperature was 18 Deg Celcius.
Cartridge load of 1988 manufacture. 244 grains.

[Grumpy]

You`re getting the idea penpusher.
There are any number of different .30 cals, 8mms, 7mms and .22 centrefires in particular. Both the 7.62X51/.308 Win and .30-06 ( amongst others ) share a .308 bore but are not compatible with each other......and that`s just one example. As we`ve already noted, there are at least two 8x50R calibres ( the Lebel and the Mannlicher ) which is why the further identification via the `manufacturers`/`designers` name is necessary.
It doesn`t help that the designated calibre often does not represent the actual calibre - the .303 British for example actually uses a c .311" diameter bullet.
The differences in power and pressure levels between two cartridges of the same bore can be dramatically different.....Which is why cartridges should NEVER be interchanged. Many chambers designated for one calibre will often chamber another..........but that does NOT mean the two are compatible. You use the designated cartridge only or run the distinct risk of severely injuring or even killing yourself.....and destroying the gun.
There seems to be an almost cavalier attitude amongst some Indians - including members of this forum - in which they will risk chambering and firing a cartridge other than that designated. DON`T DO IT. Such an attitude reflects extreme stupidity.
I deliberately do not discuss certain firearms technical specifics on this forum because I know that it is guaranteed that some idiot will do what I say not to.
I suppose that the lack of firearms and ammunition is responsible but the lack of common sense is appalling.

[Grumpy]

Abhijeet, the BSA 8mm was NOT the same as the 8x50R Mannlicher ( and apparently the .315 ) It was a very short-lived necked-up .303. As has just been discussed, one needs to be quite specific when discussing calibres/cartridges.
It would seem that much of the confusion regarding the origins of the IOF .315 has been caused by the careless - and inaccurate - application of calibre de.scriptions in the past......including by Indian based retailers like Mantons who appear to be responsible for describing the 8x50R Mannlicher as the `BSA 8mm` in the first place.
Where the `.315` designation comes from is anyones guess........but it also is wildly innacurate as, if the calibre is the same as the 8x50R, the bullet diameter is actually .323".

[penpusher]

If you keep a 8x50R Austrian Mannlicher cartridge next to a IOF .315 cartridge,they look remarkably similar..However when you measure them,they do not match.Also we do not have the chamber pressure at which the IOF .315 cartridge operates.Any variation in this coupled with the slight variation in the bore /cartridge dimensions fired form a weakened action would be a sure shot recipe for disaster.Personally I would prefer to fire the IOF .315 cartridge from a IOF rifle and no amount of persuasion is going to make fire the IOF cartridge in any other rifle.

The Austrian Mannlicher cartridge may be the inspiration for the IOF .315 cartridge however that is where the similarity seems to end.The chaps at IOF seem to have made slight variations to this to the extent that they are no longer the same cartridge.Loose manufacturing tolerances alone might or might not account for these variations.So as long as we do not have the specifications of the IOF for the .315 cartridge we will never be able to tell for sure if it indeed is the 8x50R Austrian.

The link to the other discussion also is inconclusive.Some people feeling that it looks a lot like the 8x50R Austrian,but some saying that it is not.The main advantage that we have over them is that we have the case dimensions of the .315 cartridge.And it is not a perfect match.The IOF case is longer and there are other variations as well.Also the 8x50R Austrian was initially a black powder cartridge.

At best we can say is that the IOF chaps were 'inspired' by the 8x50R Austrian cartridge just the way Bollywood directors are inspired by Hollywood movies The end product has no resemblance to what inspired it.

[shahid]

Needless to repeat again, but it will hold good, all IFG members are requested never to fire any other 8 mm cartridge in an IOF ,315 rifle apart from IOF .315 ammo. Not much will be available in India anyway.

Similarly, do not attempt to fire the IOF .315 cartridge in any other 8 mm rifle even if it chambers or fits. The end results could be extremely extremely dangerous and may result in very serious injury / disability or death.

It is an unwise thing to do and there should be no lure / temptation towards such experiments.

I have heard of some people attempting to fire 20 Bore cartridges in 500 Express DBBL rifles. THis is also a totally wrong practise. DO not attempt such things.

[Grumpy]

I agree with your general conclusion penpusher.....but possibly not with some of the specifics. I`m happy to accept that the IOF .315 is fundamentally the same as the 8x50R Mannlicher.
As far as the minor differences in dimensions are concerned, manufacturing tolerances could easily account for those......especially as I would bet a largish amount that the dimensions were not taken from the original Steyr drawings but from measurements of actual cartridges ( and dimensional variations would have varied on those anyway ) and chambers of imported rifles.....which would have had wear already. Add manufacturing tolerance variables to manufacturing tolerance variables and you end up with a near ( ish ) copy.
As such, I consider your suggestion that using 8x50R ammunition in an IOF .315 could be potentially dangerous to be eminently sensible.

[Grumpy]

Abhijeet, if it is the case that the rifle is also marked with `8mm` marks I would suggest that that is the proof stamp for the 8x50R Mannlicher. As such it would support my postulation that the ( engraved ) .315 designation is an export de.scription.

[mundaire]

Grumps, as per my conversation with Danish - the action is marked .315, while the barrel is marked 8mm...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[danish21]

Abhijeet, if it is the case that the rifle is also marked with `8mm` marks I would suggest that that is the proof stamp for the 8x50R Mannlicher. As such it would support my postulation that the ( engraved ) .315 designation is an export de..scription.

I do not agree with this, my previous rifle John Rigby 7x57mm Showed 7mm on the end of the barrel where barrel meets the chamber and on the barrel it was written "John Rigby" and its address, don't really remember but it was something like "72, St. ____ street, london" and after the address Cal .275 was mention on the barrel.

[penpusher]

I have never seen the caliber marked on the action.

[danish21]

I never said that there is a caliber marked on the action. Its marked on the barrel.

[Grumpy]

penpusher, an accurising job basically involves the following:
Squaring the bolt face;
Squaring the bolt lugs,
Squaring the receiver face;
Squaring the receiver lugs and
Trueing the receiver threads which involves using a piloted tap.
Squaring these faces is essential for a tight lock-up as otherwise only a point contact is maintained which allows movement. Likewise it`s always a good idea to have the barrel fitted true to the receiver...................
Additional items such as fitting an oversize recoil lug ( and even fitting a second lug ) to improve the bedding rigidity will also assist.....as will having a trigger with a smooth take-up and light break.
Bedding the action is essential to optimum accuracy but the barrel should be free-floating which involves removing wood so that there is no contact with the barrel whatsoever when the rifle is supported by the forward hand or on a rest.
Full stocked rifles are incapable of optimum accuracy.
Accurate headspacing is also necessary.
Then it`s a case of working up the load that a particular rifle is most accurate with.
Remington 700s are capable of exceptional accuracy but the machining often leaves a lot to be desired. I know of one 26" heavy barrelled 700 that would not shoot better than 2 1/4" groups....and then not consistently - after a full accurising job it shoots 1/2 MOA groups.
My current favourite new rifle is the Howa 1500 which uses what is essentially a modified Remington 700 action but consistently more accurately machined....yet cheap. I know of several which will shoot sub 1 MOA groups out-of-the-box. Getting them to shoot 1/2 MOA groups is comparitively inexpensive.
Of course if a rifle is put together properly it can shoot very well as it comes. My S&L 30-06 hasn`t been bedded or had any work done on it whatsoever but will shoot sub MOA groups with some factory ammo. Of course that`s a rifle that cost over £1500 ( $3000 ) when new......and it was new some time in the 1980s. That was a lot of money then ! Built on an FN M98 action with a heavy sporter barrel. It`s a brute of a beast but a rifle that I have no intention of selling.