IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

[penpusher]

If you go by the dimensions for the 8x50R Mannlicher on the link that I have given,they are different from those of the IOF .315.The variation is small though how significant it is,I have no idea.

[penpusher]

8x50R Austrian:-

Bullet 8.2mm/.323"

Neck 8.89mm/.350"

Shoulder 12.09mm/.476"

Base 12.59mm/.496"

Rim 14.19mm/.559"

Length of case 50.19mm/1.976"

Length of case till shoulder 38.27mm/1.507"

[shahid]

THIS EXCAHNGE MAY PROVIDE SOME INSIGHT

Courtesy a friend – KUDUUAE on another gun forum.

Strictly for knowledgebase share only.

The history of the .315 cartridge is quite clear to me: In colonial India the private sale of the official British military calibers was banned since the early 1900s, see also the development of the .465, .470 and .475 nitro express cartridges to replace the banned .450s. So for instance Manton & Co., then of 13 Old Court House Street, Calcutta, in their 1925 catalog, page 77, offered a ".315 BSA Lee Enfield Magazine sporting rifle". The also 1925 Kynoch ammunition catalog, p.50, lists the "8mm (.315) Mannlicher for Austrian, Bulgarian and Greek sevice rifles". The ballistics given on page 89: 41grs smokeless powder, 244 grs metal covered bullet, muzzle velocity 2034 fps! So your .315" sporting rifle cartridge is nothing else then the old Austro-Hungarian service cartridge of WWI, long forgotten in Europe, called 8x50R Mannlicher M95. I also know a British made boxlock double rifle by T.Bland, London, chambered for this round. After 1930 most of the 95 Mannlicher military rifles were reworked to use the improved 8x56R Hungarian cartridge, which gave improved ballistics: 206grs @ 2300fps

My answer

You seem to have pehnomenal knowledge on shooting sports and I am sure this forum will greatly benefit with you here.

You have added very valuable inputs to this subject of .315 origin. In fact the missing link has been found.

So this Austro Hungarian 8 mm x 50 cartridge is the proginator of this IOF 8 mm ( .315 ) cartridge.

By any chance would you have a pic of the cartridge or the page extract from the 1925 Manton & Co. Catalouge.

Given a chance I would simply love to thumb through this volume, plenty of trivia and old shooting sports history would lay in there.

Part 2Hi Shahid,
The reprint of the Manton 1925 catalog is available from www.kynochammunition.co.uk . The cut shows an earlier type of the Lee-Speed action, the name of the civilian versions of the Lee-Enfield, but new cuts were expensive to make and so were used in catalogs over and over again. When BSA was stopped from selling .303 rifles in India, they had to look for another rimmed cartridge with reasonably low pressure, but similar ballistics that fitted in the comparatively weak Lee action. The most popular hunting load for the .303 at that time was the .303 Mk VI loaded with a soft point bullet, essentially the .303 Mk II*C , the world-infamous Dum-Dum load. These loads gave a 215 grs bullet a mv of 2060 fps, so the 244grs at 2034fps of the 8x50R Mannlicher/.315 was definitely not inferior! I quoted the Kynoch ballistics,as Manton´s appear to be rounded off a little bit.
The maximum case dimensions of the old 8x50R were still listed in the 1991 German proof tables. For sure someone over there has got a .315 case and a caliper to compare them, but consider the generous manufacturing tolerances:
Total length of case: 50.2 mm= 1.976"
length to start of shoulder: 38.29mm= 1.51"
" " " " Neck: 44.17mm= 1.74"
rim thickness: 1.4mm= .055"
rim diameter: 14.2mm = .56"
base diam.: 12.6mm= .496"
shoulder diam.: 12.09mm = .476"
neck diam.: 9.04mm = .355"
Bullet diam.: 8.22 mm =.324

[mundaire]

So if this indeed the 8x50R Mannlicher cartridge, the question I have is - does anyone know theoretically what's the best accuracy that can be expected from this cartridge, out to... say 300 meters?

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[penpusher]

A some what similar discussion took place here http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum/vi ... sc&start=0

[mundaire]

Hmm... just checked out the thread... penpusher if you recall Danish had once mentioned a BSA made .315 rifle... it would now seem that this could have been a BSA rifle with a Lee-Enfield action and chambered for the 8x50R Mannlicher...

This is getting to be an interesting thread...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Grumpy]

Interesting thread - and remarkably similar to the discussion here in many ways......especially as I`ve been in correspondence with several of the participants over the past day or so ......and that it only concluded just over a month ago.
I`ve no idea what the `mystery` cartridge is - except that it is definitely not an 8x50R Mannlicher. It would appear to be a .303 with a strange shoulder.
To my knowledge ALL Lee Speeds were built by BSA - various ( and several ) gun `makers` names appear on them but that is of no consequence. 1925 is too late a date for a true Lee Speed but it could be a commercial No1 Mk III.......or a rechambered and rebarrelled/rebored/lined .303 Lee Speed. Lee Speeds were certainly chambered for the 8x50R ( unspecified but definitely the Mannlicher. ) I suppose that one or other of the proof houses might have stamped some as `.315` ...... but have no idea why.
One of the troubles with British gunmakers is that they were a law unto themselves when it came to calibre designations.......and the British proof houses weren`t much better. Even worse were the colonial retailers who almost arbitrarily invented calibre designations - especially for continental and American calibres. Mantons described the 30-30 Win as the `.305` ( or something very similar ) in at least one of their catalogues and as the `Winchester .300` in others.
The 8x50R Mannlicher is not renowned as as being especially accurate however, as with the IOF .315 - and every other rifle/cartridge - the variables are manifold. Quality of machining and the accuracy of dimensions of the rifles themselves are a very important aspect of the equation. Commercial .323" Spitzer type bullets of somewhere in the region of 195-210 gr would help as well. Assuming that the IOF rifle has a good bore and rifling, the combination of blueprinting, headspacing, bedding and hand loading the rifle should be capable of MOA accuracy......or pretty close anyway. In still conditions and with a stable bullet there is no reason that the accuracy should deteriorate at longer ranges - within reason of course.
With the right combination - and if you are very lucky - exceptional accuracy can be achieved with a standard rifle straight out of the box. I have a friend whose bog-stand Browning A-Bolt Mk II .300 Win Mag will shoot 1/3 MOA groups at 300 yards with its preferred handloads.

[penpusher]

Knowing Indian gun dealers,it would not be out of reason to assume that some of the Rifles in 8mm BSA or other rifles in 8x50R were 'modified' to accept the IOF .315 cartridge and sold as an 'imported .315 rifle' at a hefty profit.The dimensions of the two cartridges are close enough for this to be achievable.

[mundaire]

Knowing Indian gun dealers,it would not be out of reason to assume that some of the Rifles in 8mm BSA or other rifles in 8x50R were 'modified' to accept the IOF .315 cartridge and sold as an 'imported .315 rifle' at a hefty profit.The dimensions of the two cartridges are close enough for this to be achievable.

Is it possible that they could have been "reproved" in India at a relatively recent date, and been stamped .315 at the same time? Anyone have a clue as to what is the process involved in submitting a gun to be proved/ reproved in India?

Or of course like you say, unscrupulous dealers could have simply etched the numbers on themselves....

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[penpusher]

As per law,no firearm can be sold in the India if it has not been proved.If this were to be applied strictly,none of the imported firearms could be sold.


The IOF alone has the facility to proof firearms in the country.However they do this only for 12 ga shotguns manufactured in the country.As far as other firearms are concerned,they have no idea and do not care.If you manufacture a new barrel for a .315 rifle and want to get it proved,they won't do it.At the same time they will not sell you a new .315 barrel either.

The possibility of the IOF reproving a rifle imported into the country does not arise.First,if they will not do it for their own firearms,then why would they do it for an imported rifle?Second,which dealer is going to bother about getting this done?

[penpusher]

Do read a lot about 'blue printing' of rifle action.What exactly does it mean?

[marksman]

Well thanks Grumpy and all. I wasn't wrong when i said 315 IOF is not unlike the Austrian 8x50R Mannlicher. I gather more from then what I contribute to this forum and like a healthy debate in case of deferred opinions once in a while. I cannot prove the similarity now but they sure looked the same when I possessed them both at one time. Wasn't aware of a tool called Dial Caliper in the 70s.
Marksman

[danish21]

Photographs of BSA .315 Sporting Rifle.
The pics are not so clear as i took these pics from my mobile's camera. "Rifle Sporting .315 BSA Made in England" written on its barrel. .315 indian cartridges are used in this rifle.

[Grumpy]

It`s difficult to tell but the rifle appears to be a Lee Speed.......A better picture of the right side of the action would really help. If it is a Lee Speed it raises a few interesting points:
1. The rifle is marked `Made in England` which implies it was made for export - none of the Lee Speeds that have passed through my hands have been so marked;
2. The Lee Speed was based on the Long Lee ( Lee Enfield Mk I ) with the distinctive bolt dust cover, a magazine cut-off and lacking the receiver rear bridge of following models. The last Long Lee was built c 1907 although its quite possible that stocks were held by BSA for some time afterwards ( but 18 years and with the First World War intervening would be highly unlikely );
3. If a rifle marked `BSA .315` chambers the IOF .315 then the BSA .315 must be the 8x50R Mannlicher;
4. Some Lee Speeds were certainly chambered for the 8x50R ( Mannlicher ) and marked as such - I know of one currently for sale. I`m wondering if the `BSA .315` designation was only applied to rifles intended for export ?

[mundaire]

Grumps, I was on the phone with Danish earlier this evening and he mentioned something which he seems to have omitted mentioning in his post. Apparently there is an additional marking on the barrel which reads "8 mm". Just thought I'd add this for a little more completeness...

Cheers!
Abhijeet