25 meters range for a defence handgun.

[Hunter]

Hi All,

Have noticed most ranges have a 25 meter pistol range. My question is-is it a realistic range for a defence handgun ,which could be used at a very close range to protect ones life from harm.

We have seen handguns of various sizes and shapes from .22 to .32 and the odd .25/.45 fail to shoot decent groups at that distance.I agree that grip shape and angle have paid a very important part(the IOF-.32 grips suck).I will also admit not having regular practice also does not support the cause too. Most shooters of protection models fire only 10-15 rounds a month! We questioned some of the more regular shooters (10 rounds a week) and they also candidly admitted that its not really practical to practice shooting a defense handgun at that range.

Your comments.............

[mundaire]

Hi Hunter,

In India we ONLY have "ISSF rules" shooting sports, and both the rimfire & centrefire pistol events under ISSF rules are shot at 25m. Needless to say ISSF rules events have nothing to do with real life self-defence situations!

Also, the guns used for these style(s) of shooting sports are NOT meant OR any good for self-defence use.

Most self-defence shootings would occur at 10 yards or less... so if that is what you are preparing for, you should practice at shorter ranges (if possible) and also adopt a more practical two handed (tactical shooting type - held a lot closer to the body) grip on the pistol, in stead of sticking to the ISSF rules and using only one (outstretched) hand.

HTH
Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Grumpy]

25 Yards is rather too far for practising defensive shooting but many pistols are perfectly useable at 25 yards. Les Baer Custom for example now guarantee most of their 1911 type pistols will shoot 3 inch groups at 50 yards.......and they are definitely NOT ISSF type target pistols but centrefire defensive and combat guns.

[Grumpy]

By the way Abhijeet - who`s been a busy boy then ?
Making multiple posts, attending to the IFG `housekeeping`.......
Have you got a day off or something ?

[mundaire]

By the way Abhijeet - who`s been a busy boy then ?
Making multiple posts, attending to the IFG `housekeeping`.......
Have you got a day off or something?

You guessed it!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[shutzen]

Hi Hunter,
In India we ONLY have "ISSF rules" shooting sports, and both the rimfire & centrefire pistol events under ISSF rules are shot at 25m. Needless to say ISSF rules events have nothing to do with real life self-defence situations!
Also, the guns used for these style(s) of shooting sports are NOT meant OR any good for self-defence use.
HTH
Cheers!
Abhijeet

HI! Abhijit Its not my line but I regularly see shooters competing and practicing at 50 M on our range with a free pistols. Even in the Nationals there is a free pistol 50 M match - I have seen it myself can you chk on this pl.
BTW I do find the reliability and high speed rapid fire capability of the target shooting pistols both rimfire and centerfire very impressive ( I also like the wadcutter cartridge and it would be devastating in self defence use Vs normal round nose ammo i think )and would personally opt for a target pistol to defend myself VS a IOF pistol or revolver;) - or for that matter over any other small handgun.This is ofcourse my personal view and I do recall seeing sevral movies where the bad guys and good guys use the target pistols with plain regular grips and the pistols looked fab !

[TenX]

Needless to say ISSF rules events have nothing to do with real life self-defence situations!

Yes Yes.. I can never picture a 3 feet wide burglar posing for us to take a shot at him .. and sometimes for 150 seconds!

[Grumpy]

"Yes Yes.. I can never picture a 3 feet wide burglar posing for us to take a shot at him .. and sometimes for 150 seconds!"

Yup, and with a .177 air pistol at that. LOL

Well said TenX.

[mundaire]

HI! Abhijit Its not my line but I regularly see shooters competing and practicing at 50 M on our range with a free pistols. Even in the Nationals there is a free pistol 50 M match - I have seen it myself can you chk on this pl.

Since the topic was about whether EVEN 25m is TOO MUCH range to be practice at, when preparing for self defence - I did not think it was pertinent to mention free pistol events... anyhow, thanks for adding that bit for the sake of completeness...

BTW I do find the reliability and high speed rapid fire capability of the target shooting pistols both rimfire and centerfire very impressive (I also like the wadcutter cartridge and it would be devastating in self defence use Vs normal round nose ammo i think) and would personally opt for a target pistol to defend myself VS a IOF pistol or revolver;) - or for that matter over any other small handgun.This is of course my personal view and I do recall seeing several movies where the bad guys and good guys use the target pistols with plain regular grips and the pistols looked fab !

Don't believe everything you see in the movies! The centrefire and rimfire target pistols are IMHO too large relative to their power output (.22 LR and .32 wadcutter loads are NOT manstoppers!!), neither do they (usually) have any safety levers... Also, considering a typical 'engagement' range of 10 yards or less in a self defence situation - the improved accuracy would not be of much help, especially keeping in mind the adrenaline rush that people experience in such situations!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Grumpy]

Absolutely right Abhijeet - on all counts.
Wadcutter bullets are designed to leave a clean-edged hole through paper targets and would be singularly ineffectual as man-stoppers.
`Serious Redneck` has pointed pointed-out how in stressful situations even trained police officers can lose their ability to shoot accurately and how that accuracy needs to be re-enforced by relevent combat training. `Hunters` contention that shooting at 10 metres would be more relevent for defensive type training is not only correct but also extremely sensible - especially if combined with `kill zone` type torso targets and some input from the combat and PP type manuals.
By the way, `Serious Rednecks` telling how a fellow officer in his department put 16 shots - a full magazine - into a felon indicates just how effective combat training can be. 16 shots, all on target, in a highly stressful situation, is exemplary shooting.

[hamiclar01]

how a fellow officer in his department put 16 shots - a full magazine - into a felon indicates just how effective combat training can be. 16 shots, all on target, in a highly stressful situation, is exemplary shooting.

assuming it wasn't training module mendez...subject pinned to the ground by four people, gun against the head

[penpusher]

Most of the handguns that are in the hands of civilians in India(people like Abhijeet who have a handgun in a more serious caliber are few and far between)are designed for close range defensive purposes only.Even 10 yards is a bit of a stretch for a .25 pistol most of which have no or almost no sights.Also the bullet starts tumbling very quickly.Put up a target and shoot at it with a .25 pistol and you would know what I am talking about.Useful at a range of 4-6 feet at the most.A .32pistol/revolver or a .380 pistol would be a better bet.If you can,try to get a 7.63 Mauser or a 7.62 Tokarev.Instead of 10 meters I would suggest 12-15 feet with most of the shots taken without the use of sights and aimed at the torso.Once you can do this you can try some of the fancy stuff and find out the capabilities of your handgun.Also,despite what movies tell you,shotguns are not the ultimate 'one shot one kill' firearms.You can easily miss with a shotgun.Hi. capacity magazines are also not what the doctor ordered.If you can't settle the matter in 5-6 shots you would not be able to do so in 8 or 14.

Just my thoughts.I may be wrong but hope that I never find out.

So practice,practice and pray very hard that you never have to shoot anybody.

[TenX]

After many months of practice at the range, I finally had an IOF air pistol at home, and to begin with, it seemed like a 'good enough' defence. And mostly, at that point of time, I never imagined what I would have to defend against. My first experience of how much it would actually help came when I saw a rat run around the house. I picked up the .177 and aimed pretty much, and had fired almost eight shots before I could kill it. (My dogs would have taken one tenth the time). Now imagine that rat to be about 200 times the size, and someone who would surely and aggresively attack too. Well, thats what a rat burglar would probably do, when he gets cornered. And however good I was at shooting, the very fact that the opponent can as well attck the gun slinger is something we never imagine at practice
I now have two 'longs' - swordss that I picked up near the Amritsar Golden Temple. I feel that brandishing such a huge sharp object would probably be more useful in atleast scaring away burglars.
Guns, I feel should probably produce the loudest noise and should be capable of rapid fire, with least recoil. Even if the bullets dont do much damage, the very noise and feel of pellets or bullets hitting someone can create more scare.

[Pran]

My first experience of how much it would actually help came when I saw a rat run around the house. I picked up the .177 and aimed pretty much, and had fired almost eight shots before I could kill it.

Anand, I shot and injured a rat in my garden with my .22 air rifle two days ago. I guess it was injured somewhere close to the neck but it stalled for a second and got away before I could load another pellet in my springer.Having a CO2 or a PCP sure helps fire pellets in quick succession.

>I now have two 'longs' - swordss that I picked up near the Amritsar Golden Temple

Guess it's illegal to possess a blade longer than six inches.

Pran

[TenX]

Guess it's illegal to possess a blade longer than six inches.
Pran

It sure is illegal! Matter of fact the way I got it over to Bangalore by train was itself totally wrong. The intention when I purchased it was to have it as a wall hanging. But afer it came home, and 'elders' objected in having weapons on walls, it is stowed away, actually hidden behind the umbrella stand, and one below the TV.