Changing the shot in a shotgun cartridge

[penpusher]

In India it is a big problem getting KF shotgun cartridges of any no. other than No.1.

Hunting is not allowed in the country and you can own a shotgun for only 2 purposes ie. for sport and for self defence.

No. 1 is pretty useless for any type of shooting sports.

For defence purposes,it is logical that you would wish to use the biggest size shot/projectile that you are allowed.In India this means any shot size that is smaller than 5mm.However slug/ball is perfectly legal.KF does not make cartridges loaded with ball or slug.No.1 shot also does not fulfill the requirement of having the largest shot size legally allowed.

What I wish to know is that:-

1.If it is safe to change the shot to another size (BBB or No.10) provided the weight of the shot is kept the same as the shot that has been removed?

2.i)Can you load a ball/slug in place of shot in the shotgun cartridge?

ii)Is there anyone who makes molds for shotgun slugs?

iii)Can a slug made from pure lead be fired from a full choke shotgun?

3.What are the tools that would be required for this? (Reloading)

4.Is there any way of making you own shot?

Thanks in advance.

[jonahpach]

Yes to all the above!

It's being done by farmers all the time all over mizoram and I havent heard of any blowouts due to change of shot.. Primer removal tools and Shot moulding dies were available at gunshops all over india 20 years ago, and some of them may still have some old stock. You can also fabricate your own with a pair of old pliers!

Jonah

[penpusher]

Jonah,

I do not plan to reload the cartridge but just change the the pellets to one of a different size or load it with ball/slug.So no need for me to get a de-capper/re-capper. Can you post pictures of the shot moulding dies?

[cottage cheese]

Jonah,

I do not plan to reload the cartridge but just change the the pellets to one of a different size or load it with ball/slug.So no need for me to get a de-capper/re-capper. Can you post pictures of the shot moulding dies?

Hi penpusher,

Not that I've attempted any such thing, but I do remember ball molding dies shaped like a pair of pliers. The jaws were blocks which had a half hemisphere recess each and a small funnel shaped pouring gate was incorporated half on both blocks. You'd need to clip or file off the sprue formed by the pouring gate. Dunno how much that would affect ballistics or your bore. Here's what it looks like... Musket ball mold

Perhaps a different sized ball for muskets could be found useful as well.

regards,
cc

[Mack The Knife]

penpusher,

I may as well tell you that Grumpy went quite potty when I asked him if I could use a slug in my gun. Both barrels have a full choke. Now that you have been warned, check your e-mail in a bit.

Mack The Knife

P.S.: The e-mail bounced back. PM me an appropriate address.

[cottage cheese]

O ya, Rusty has a point I was over-looking... slugs and chokes don't get along too well...unless the single ball is somewhat sub-caliber...which would take any hope of whatever 'accuracy' to a very low level

[jonahpach]

If you want to make your own lead shot you could try pouring some molten lead through a stainless/copper sieve from a height into a bucket of water checkout this Shot tower link if you want more info..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_tower

Jonah

[shutzen]

HI! Most of the slugs I have seems are actually "sabot" types where the slug - whatever shape it may be ball or slug is surrounded by a plastic carrier. This carrier forms the gas seal and as the ball/slug is of much lesser dia than the choke the plastic compresses at time of exit from barrel and later falls away leaving the ball to go its own merry way - You have no danges firing such rounds in any normal shotgun. Rifled slugs are a diff matter and they are anyways fired in rifled barrel shotguns.
As for penpusher's question of the operation for the cart. I have my Dad's old shotgun reloading stuff lying with me it has a big punch with which you can cut out the cardboard circles needed for resealing the refilled carts -And it has a small press cum rotating cup type resealer in which you place the cart press down while turning the rotary handle and the shot shell ends are perfectly turned in and sealed. This stuff should still be lying around with the old gen. dudes who were into reloading.

[Risala]

Most believe that ideally slugs should be fired with an IC choke constriction,but the Clever Mirage box I

picked up clearly states that it can be fired from any choke constriction incl full.

Lead being soft should be able to pass through the constrictions easily without causing any damage to the

tubes but the trajectory/pattern would suffer,havent tried it as yet on the Baikal it has full

and modified chokes.

Sanjay

[HSharief]

HI! Most of the slugs I have seems are actually "sabot" types where the slug - whatever shape it may be ball or slug is surrounded by a plastic carrier. This carrier forms the gas seal and as the ball/slug is of much lesser dia than the choke the plastic compresses at time of exit from barrel and later falls away leaving the ball to go its own merry way

Shutzen has it right I think. Sabots are what they're called.

Rifled slugs are a diff matter and they are anyways fired in rifled barrel shotguns.

This part, not so much. From what I know, rifled slugs are shot in smooth bores and the sabots are shot in rifled barelled shotguns. Atleast, the guys I shoot/hunt with do this and I have shot rifled slugs thru my smooth bores as I don't have a rifled barrel for my shotguns. Rifled slugs in rifled barrels would be bad juju I'd think, with the twists of the barrel and slug competing and messing things up. That'd be bad, I think.

[Risala]

A very nice write up by Chuck Hawks about slugs

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm

[penpusher]

Thanks Sanjay.BTW,doing this is perfectly legal despite the restrictive laws in the country.As per Schedule II of Notification No.15/13/59(VII)-Police(IV),GSR 992,the following has been excluded form the provisions of the Arms Act,1959(54 of 1959):-

Arms and ammunition(excluded)
Sr. No 2)Recapper,decapper and turn over machines

Provisions of the act(excluded from)

All:Provided that the use of these machines is restricted to loading or re-loading cartridges for ones own personal use and for no other purpose

Footnote: The words in blue are mine own to put the things in perspective as I find it tedious typing the whole thing.

[Grumpy]

"Rifled slugs are a diff matter and they are anyways fired in rifled barrel shotguns. "

Wrong. `Rifled` slugs - primarily based on the Brenneke design - have angled `fins` arranged about the circumference which induce spin against air pressure thus promoting accuracy. The `fins` can be plainly seen in the pictures of the `Clever Mirage` cartridges that Mack The Knife provided. There is no problem with using `rifled` slugs in a rifled barrel ( contrary as that might seem ) and doing do will improve accuracy. No cup is necessary with a `rifled` slug as they have an oversize skirt which provides the gas seal

Sabot slugs are sub-calibre - around .5 inches for a 12-Bore - and enclosed by a substantial sleeve ( a tube ) - the sabot - made of a composite material. They HAVE to be used with a rifled barrel as, being a plain `bullet, they will not `spin` otherwise. The reason that sabotted slugs are able to produce more energy than a rifled slug is that the bullet form is far more ballistically efficient. The bore size `rifled`OR `ball` slugs are extremely short for calibre.......and aerodynamically pretty hopeless.

The term `sabot` by the way, derives from French and is specifically an overshoe, worn over an ordinary shoe, to protect it from snow/water etc.

Shotgun `Ball` type cartridges use a bore size plain ball or short bullet with no `rifling` fins. As such they are only suitable for short range use if fired from a smooth barrel because they do not spin and are inherently unstable.

The reason that I strongly advise against using rifled or ball slugs in fully choked barrels is because so many barrels have a bore diameter substantially less than the nominal ( actually `notional ) .729" 12-Bore `standard`. This, combined with 30+ thou of full choke presents an extreme restriction. Bore sizes of .719 are extremely common and sub .710" bores are not at all uncommon - especially in older guns. Firing a solid slug through an effective 55 thou constriction knocks the stuffing out of a gun and leads to dramatically accellerated joint wear.
If you intend to use slugs in a fully choked barrel you should have the chokes opened out to half choke.........which will make for a much more usable gun for shot cartridges anyway. Full chokes are for long range wildfowling ( ie, Geese and Ducks ) or Trap use only.

[Grumpy]

The `drop` required to produce perfect shot is quite substantial - hence the use of high shot towers. The shot forms into a near perfect round form when falling and substantially cools - and solidifies - as it does so. Dropping molten lead droplets from a height of just a couple of feet into a bucket of water will just produce `splats` of flattened lead.
Contrary to popular opinion, a raindrop ( or drop of molten lead ) is not `teardrop` shaped but round.

[penpusher]

Grumpy,

1.Does the shot have to perfectly round for the shotgun to pattern properly?

2.What is the variation between the bore and the choke for the various choke constrictions?

3.Is a 30ft drop sufficient for producing perfect shot?


More importantly,can I replace the shot with larger or smaller pellets without any risk to myself or the gun as long as I keep the weight the same?