BERETTA TOMCAT 3230

[chicky]

I was recently offered a beautifully maintained Tomcat in .25 as an alternative to an equally well maintained Walther ppk in .22. Almost at the same price. Could you please suggest which one would you prefer ? Thanks for your help...

Happy Holi to all members

[kps_dhillon]

.22 would be a better calibre in terms of availability of ammo. Walther ppk is also a well known pistol.

[timmy]

Advantages of 22 LR:
Widely available
Most inexpensive ammo to buy

Advantages of 25 Auto
Feeds more reliably because of its semi-rimless design (22 LR is rimmed)
Fires more reliably with the centerfire primer (Rimfire priming will sometimes not go BANG. The more cheaply made the ammo, the more common this problem is in 22 LR.)

The power of the two is roughly comparable. Don't be fooled by published 22 LR ballistics, which are usually quoted for rifle barrels. Out of an 80 mm or so barrel, 25 Auto and 22 LR are very close in power.

Base you choice on this:
if you want to shoot as much as you can for as cheaply as you can, go with 22 LR
If you are using the pistol for self protection and the pistol must fire and must feed a fresh round reliably, go with the 25 Auto

[gb123]

Advantages of 22 LR:
Widely available
Most inexpensive ammo to buy

Advantages of 25 Auto
Feeds more reliably because of its semi-rimless design (22 LR is rimmed)
Fires more reliably with the centerfire primer (Rimfire priming will sometimes not go BANG. The more cheaply made the ammo, the more common this problem is in 22 LR.)

The power of the two is roughly comparable. Don't be fooled by published 22 LR ballistics, which are usually quoted for rifle barrels. Out of an 80 mm or so barrel, 25 Auto and 22 LR are very close in power.

Base you choice on this:
if you want to shoot as much as you can for as cheaply as you can, go with 22 LR
If you are using the pistol for self protection and the pistol must fire and must feed a fresh round reliably, go with the 25 Auto

Hi timmy,

Can you please explain how to load rimmed cartridges in a magazine properly? Like push the shell all the way in or to maintain some gap with respect to the previous rim.

Thanks in advance.

Gb

[timmy]

Gb, the magazine is always somewhat slanted, with the bottom to the back, which helps prevent this.

Put the first cartridge into the magazine and make sure the base of the cartridge is all the way against the back of the magazine.

Then put the next cartridge into the magazine, and make sure that it is all the way to the back after it has entered the feed lips of the magazine. The slant of the magazine should keep the rim of the second, or top cartridge, from going back so far as to interlock with the first cartridge rim below.

Then continue to load additional cartridges as you have loaded the second one, making sure that each one doesn't lock with the rim of the cartridge below it.

Wiith 22 LR, the rim is so large that this should be easy.

With 25 Auto and 32 Auto, these are "semi rimmed" cartridges. Of course, either a cartridge is rimmed or it is not, and so "semi rimmed" means that the cartridge does have a rim, but that it is small.

If the magazine of the pistol has the proper slant to it, there should be no problem, as the cartridge above won't be able to go back far enough to have its rim interlock with the cartridge rim below it. Your danger here is to make sure that the first cartridge is loaded all the way to the back of the magazine. For my 32 Auto, which is a CZ70, the magazine is small enough (the cartridges can't move back and forth in the magazine very far) and slanted enough (the top of the cartridge rim hits the slanted back of the magazine before the rim of the cartridge below) that the interlock never happens.

Take two loose cartridges and place them beside each other. Holding them against each other and then moving them back and forth will show you how the rims can interlock. As the rim is pretty small, it is not always easy to see, but when you lay the cartridges side by side, you can see the rims easier.

I can see that, where the magazine of some make of gun might be too long -- the cartridge has a lot of room to move backward and forward in the magazine -- not having the first cartridge loaded to the back of the magazine could cause a problem of interlocking with the cartridge rim above it. As I haven't handled every gun, I can't know for sure about this in every case, so I can only say that it isn't a problem with mine.

Also, if some make of pistol's magazine doesn't have enough slant, then one would need to load by feel and make sure the top cartridge loaded doesn't ride over the rim of the cartridge below it. This could get tricky, because the rims are designed to be small so that the cartridges will feed well through the pistol. That's how John Browning, the designer, was able to load these semi rimless cartridges through the action, but also have them headspace on the rim. Later cartridges that he designed, like the 380 Auto and the 45 Auto, headspaced on the case mouth so that he could eliminate the semi rimless design altogether.

[gb123]

Flawless explanation. Thanks timmy.

[timmy]

Thank you, gb, it's a pleasure to do something helpful!

[chicky]

Thankyou Timmy, appreciate your informed views . Will take a call soon on the either and confirm, though am partial to the PPK. Is there anyway to know if the pistol has been re browned ?
The one shown to me seems to be too flawless , thus being sceptic . Whereas the Tomcat seems genuine. I appreciate you can't offer a more informed advice without seeing the pistol but is there something I can check to find out if it's genuine ?

[timmy]

Chicky: This is how I would approach the problem:

Check out the Wikipedia page on the Walther PP. It lists the variations of these guns, which is a bit convoluted. From this point, you can start searching the web to perhaps get an idea of how old this gun is.

Another trick might be to check out this site, where bluing is described: https://kurtthegunsmith.com/gun-bluing- ... miths-use/ If this one doesn't help, google types or kinds of bluing. The idea here is to note the different types of bluing and the colors they produce, and then find out what kind of bluing the Walthers of your gun's age used. I picked this site because the descriptions are short, but you might be more comfortable with longer descriptions or better pictures of examples. For instance, the caustic bluing that's often used today may be durable, but the "Colt Royal Blue" is instantly identifiable compared to the black caustic blue on modern Smith & Wessons and Rugers. Going over Walther pictures on web sites might help, but you know that colors are often not true when portrayed on line or printed, so here you don't have a sure thing, just an indication. The idea here is to match the bluing on the gun with what was originally used.

Check the clues:

How old is the gun? (This goes back to the first point about identifying what you have.) If a gun is, say, 50 years old, did it come in a box? If it looks like new, but the checkering on the grips is worn, this is a clue. Of course, the grips might have been replaced, but if one portion of the gun doesn't match another in wear, you probably have come across a refurbishment.

Edges and corners: Reblued guns are often polished to some degree, and there is certainly some workmanship involved in keeping edges sharp. You will find these on the machined edges and ridges of the slide, and on the serrations used to grip the slide. Are they still sharp, or do these seem dulled or "soft"? What about the serrations on the hammer spur? I don't know if these guns had a serrated trigger, but some guns do, so if these are present, are they worn smooth or still sharp? This is like when you look at a used car and the paint is all bright and shiny, but you notice that the rubber brake or clutch pedal has wear on it that doesn't match the new look of the car. The edges of the sights will wear if the gun has been placed in a holster and removed a number of times.

Flaws under the blue: I have a 91/30 Mosin Nagant made in 1938. It looks very much to be brand new. Of course, considering that the Soviet Union fought a terrible war after the gun was made would tell one that a brand new gun is not likely to be found of that vintage! So, looking at it, even though the blue is new, there are some pits of rust at the end of the barrel: a sure sign they were too deep to polish out and were blued over. This would also apply to dents, scratches, or gouges that were left after bluing.

You can also pull the slide off and check around the feed ramp and even the feed lips of the magazine. Check where the magazine is inserted into the grip.

A lot of this won't help if the gun was only very lightly used, but then reblued.

Rust is a chemical reaction involving iron (or steel) and oxygen, and we know that many reactions are enabled or exacerbated by heat or the presence of moisture -- two things that aren't rare in a lot of India. If the gun has rusted at some time, it will have to have been polished some before bluing. Also, rust can take the form of little pin sized pits that aren't evident until you get the gun up close and really examine it. Use a magnifying glass, if you have to! I carry one around all of the time, now.

Of course, when you have the slide off, check the barrel for wear. I would think that you shouldn't see evidence of barrel wear at all, or maybe just a slight amount.

You would also want to check the operation of things, such as how the trigger feels when pulled, and whether the decocker works correctly. Incidentally, what about the decocker lever? Is there a wear pattern it forms on the frame when operated? This might give a clue.

Another place for wear that I can think of is, when you pull the trigger guard down to remove the slide, see what the edges of the catch mechanism look like. Are they worn, or still sharp, like you'd see from the factory?

These are some ideas that I would look for. It's like being a detective, where you look for clues and try to come up with the best deduction of the situation from analyzing them.

This is about what I can come up with as far as things to look for. Good luck!

[chicky]

I am so grateful for your detailed answer/help , Timmy.
Couldn't have been more elaborate.
Thanks will check again throughly before I finally buy.

Thanks again

[timmy]

Yes, please let us know what you end up getting.

[chicky]

Ofcourse, will do. Thanks for your help and advice again.

[chicky]

I did end up buying a PPK, two main reasons
It is an iconic design unchanged for 50 years, something must be good !
It's a more mature handgun to the Tomcat, which is a pocket pistol. I have large hands,PPK looks better when held.
I did buy Winchester hollow nose 40 grains high velocity cartridges with it. Now for some shooting practice Any comments on the ammo ?

[timmy]

chicky, I've given my opinions and reasons for holding those opinions in several threads, regarding 32 Auto ammunition choice.

If you're interested in my opinion, here are a pair of threads where I've explained my point of view, along with links to data to back my opinion:

viewtopic.php?t=26842

viewtopic.php?t=28281

Anyway, congratuations on your new gun! Thanks for keeping us in the loop!

[chicky]

I am complete agreement with your views however , in addition, I feel by shooting a hollow point from a .22 only increases the damage to the tissue and therefore becomes a little more "damaging" specially in short distances .
But I am, no where as experienced as you are , so please advise which bullets can I buy in future ? I understand the CCI's are good but are not readily available in India unfortunately.