Bhargav Arms SX-100 semi-auto 12 Bore shotgun!

[dsen]

We can't expect foreign standards at Indian prices (atleast for now, maybe 3-4 years later with more joint-ventures happening).

dsen, I must really question the validity of the information you share here on IFG.

A recent thread discussed the Bhargav semi-auto shotgun and mentioned a price of 1.67 lakh. (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=28437&p=270888&hil ... av#p270864)

Or another thread mentioned the price of a new Ashani semi-auto pistol at ₹73,000 (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=26789&hilit=ashani ... 12#p258342)

I have just checked the prices of semi-auto shotguns at the store a couple of blocks from my house. For less than 1.67 lakh, I can buy either a Benelli ETHOS Cordoba BE.S.T. Black 12 Gauge 3in Semi Automatic Shotgun – 30in or a Beretta A400 Xcel Sporting Black Edition KO Black 12 Gauge 3in Semi Automatic Shotgun - 28in

For the price of this Ashani, there are many guns available in this price range. Here are a few for your consideration: Heckler & Koch VP9 Tactical 9mm Luger 4.7in Black Pistol - 17+1 Rounds, Sig Sauer 320XF RXP 9mm Luger 4.7in Black Pistol - 10+1 Rounds, Ruger SR1911 Standard 45 Auto (ACP) 5in Low Glare Stainless Pistol - 8+1 Rounds, and Beretta M9A4 9mm Luger Centurion Flat Dark Earth Pistol - 15+1 Rounds

Would you please explain to me how these guns of "foreign standards" have the same price as the Bhargav or IOF products, when you imply that one must accept the lower quality of Indian guns because they cost less?

You have also asserted this point:

When I said mark for Indian standards, I meant doesn't blow up, won't start falling apart after a few hundred rounds, has decent finishing, good quality materials (polymer for the pistol grip, rubber for the recoil pad, etc.), cycles a multitude of different brands of ammo without too many hiccups.

As you know, the benchmark of excellence is very low here and what is considered military surplus quality abroad, is the gold standard in India.

here (viewtopic.php?p=271832#p271823)

I own an RFI 2A rifle, and unlike what you have said here, when you consider "military surplus quality" as less than adequate or questionable, I must object. i own, or have owned, military surplus rifles of Russia/Soviet Union and Finland (Mosin Nagant), France (Berthier), Sweden (M94), USA ('03 Springfield and Krag), China (Norinco SKS and AK, and Norinco "Star"), Czech (CZ-52 and CZ-70), the UK (Martini Henry), Poland (Radom wz29), and Switzerland (M1889) -- at least, this is what comes to my mind at the moment.

NONE of these guns have blown up, NONE have started falling apart after a few hundred rounds, ALL decent finishing, and ALL are built of good quality materials. Furthermore, ALL feed and operate correctly and have a reasonable degree of accuracy.

I realize that I may not have the breadth and depth of firearms knowledge that you posses, but I will hazard to offer, with great trepidation, these challenges to your vast reservoir of expertise that you've offered here.

Let me also mention that the RFI 2A, which was built at the Ishapore Arsenal on SMLE No. 1 Mk III* tooling, is an improvement over the original British weapon, in that it can reliably accept NATO 7.62x51mm ammunition, which the original SMLE could not. My understanding is that the engineers at Ishapore used a superior metallurgy than used by the British, enabling the design to accept a higher power cartridge. The RFI 2A in no way takes a back seat to any of the other rifles in fit and finish, in my experience, except for the Swiss 1889, but in that matter, none of the other rifles come up to Swiss standards, either.

Your ideas of the quality of military surplus are incorrect.

Your implication that India and Indians must accept a lower quality firearm with regard to capability, innovation, or fit and finish are, quite frankly rubbish and unacceptable!

On this forum, most of us don't know each other, and we must judge each other's reputations and knowledge by what we all post. Frankly, in my view, what you post here on IFG falls well below the mark of being useful or informative.

I recognize that this post may come across as abrasive, but I would respectfully offer that you would be better served by keeping your typing fingers much less busy and your reading skills much busier. You may find that you learn a few things.

Pardon me for the following reply Timmy, you might also find it a little “abrasive”. From your post above it's obvious you live abroad and are completely out of touch with reality on the ground here in India because none of the shotguns or pistols mentioned above are available anywhere in India for the prices you have mentioned. They cost 5 to 30 times more here. Let me help pop this bubble you are living in.

I would love to explain how these guns of "foreign standards" in your American/Canadian neighbourhood have the same price as the Bhargav or IOF products, it's called ‘Economies of Scale’. You would have known this if only you had kept your typing fingers less busy and your reading skills much busier. Due to the easy accessibility of firearms, there is high demand in your foreign country for weapons. Hence, the manufacturers can buy large quantities of raw materials at a discount from the supplier which in turn greatly reduces the final cost of the product. Indian manufacturers cannot do so due to 1/100th the demand here (caused by difficulties in getting an Arms Licence) and because they can get away with pricing it even higher than needed because of lack of strong competition.

Maybe you should get a new pair of glasses “Old Timer’. I never said that military surplus weapons blow up, fall apart, etc. I was talking about Indian standards as clearly seen in the first few words of that sentence. I am aware of the quality of foreign military surplus guns and was saying that for now that is the best Indian manufacturers could possibly achieve if they actually tried putting in 100% effort which most don’t and not the current international level of quality without help from a foreign joint-venture collaboration.

I DO NOT believe Indians should “accept” a lower-quality weapon. Why on Earth would I want that, being an Indian myself?! Think, be logical before you start typing. I am only stating the obvious that all Indians know to be true. You would too if you lived here. In the current market, there aren’t any affordable premium quality weapons. 90% of Arms Licence holders here cannot afford to pay above 5L for foreign guns, this is the truth whether your clueless mind believes it or not.

It amazes me how keyboard warriors like you (especially the ones who have a superiority complex) have so little touch with what’s happening at Indian gun shops but don’t spare a second to criticize others behind the safety of their anonymity. Easy to bark from the shadows, why don’t you pick up a camera and start making videos. Oh let me guess, you’re too busy. On second thought you probably shouldn’t because you have no idea about prices and availability of items here in India, which just happens to be where I live, UNLIKE YOU. I could care less if foreigners/NRIs like you don’t find my information useful or informative because it isn’t meant for you, it’s meant for my FELLOW INDIAN CITIZENS.

Also, the fact that you keep flagging/reporting my video review posts here on this IFG website as Sale posts even though I clearly am not selling anything, simply mentioning the contact details of the guns shops and having Admins delete them, just shows your petty jealousy. Oops… sorry, was I not supposed to tell others on the forum about this? My bad! Just because you joined the group early doesn’t mean you own it. If you don’t like my opinions, then reply courteously without sarcasm and unnecessary personal jabs. Since you have taken off the gloves, so am I. Please stop whining about what you like or not and desperately trying to show off your literary flair, nobody cares. I’m not doing it just for you, your highness. I would "respectfully offer" you the advice to get off your high horse and be humbler to your peers here on this forum.

[timmy]

First of all, dsen, your method of making a case is ineffectual and poor. I note your comment "Old Timer." Whatever my age, you apparently think that age is a valid basis for belittling and disqualification. Over your lifetime, it will be interesting to see how long you maintain such views.

Perhaps, when you belittle people over age, you should consider how admins might respond to your disrespect, considering how sensitive you are to their actions on IFG.

"Economies of scale": Sorry, but this argument is nothing more than throwing up something that's handy. You don't even develop the issue properly. For instance, How many guns does a small maker like Kahr make, vs. IOF? How does the price of Indian labor in gunmaking compare to that of workers in Switzerland, the USA, Italy, or Germany? How do rates of import duties affect prices? Besides not quoting figures to back up an economies of scale argument (you just post your own assertion/opinion with no facts and data), you omit to mention many other factors that would be part of an intelligent discussion, rather than an overbearing assertion of opinion.

Thank you for making my point:

From your post above it's obvious you live abroad and are completely out of touch with reality on the ground here in India because none of the shotguns or pistols mentioned above are available anywhere in India for the prices you have mentioned. They cost 5 to 30 times more here. Let me help pop this bubble you are living in.

Since the cost of the Indian weapon is, as you say, 5 to 30 times more in India, please explain way

We can't expect foreign standards at Indian prices . . .

Perhaps you should don your own reading glasses, sir: The RFI 2A rifle WAS made in India, and benefitted from Indian manufacturing techniques, scale of manufacture, design expertise, and metallurgical knowledge. Where are those qualities in evidence now, in weapons that "cost 5 to 30 times more"? Look at the useless appendage called a "safety" on the IOF revolver and copied on the current examples of the so-called "Webley" product. I have compared that "safety" with the design of a revolver made in The Philippines here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=28517 Now, will you tell me that the cost tooling up manufacture of this wart on the IOF or Webley justifies affixing such a useless gizmo, when the design could have been simplified, also reducing critical parts and fitting in the manufacture of the gun.

It's not for nothing that our member el jefe refers to these "innovations" as the efforts of "bed pan mechanics"! How much do folks making illegal guns in dirt-floored workshops invest in their products, and what is the fit and finish of them? Clearly, the only thing that is out of their reach is proper heat treatment and metallurgy, but the fit and finish of some of these weapons, do you assert, is less than IOF?

Whether you like or dislike my opinions, writing style, age, or time I've been active or not, please know that I will continue to voice my view on what you assert to be your own expertise. You may not care for the style I use when presenting my thoughts, but I do note that your abrasiveness highlights your lack of any technical refutation of the content I post here.

You may be assured, however, that I won't neglect to notice the level of technical content in your posts, including their factual nature -- or lack thereof.

I will add that, although you berate me for not understanding the Indian market and situation (a common dodge often employed by those who don't like something that's said, but can't offer sufficient content to justify their dislike), I find it interesting that you feel that Indian weapons "cost 5 to 30 times more" because of scale of manufacture. I wonder how many folks really thing that scale of manufacture justifies such expensive guns that exhibit such a degree of quality and innovation?

I fear, dsen, that while not bringing any substantive refutation to my technical points, you have at least asserted your ability to post Youtube videos, no matter however vacuous.

[winnie_the_pooh]

dsen, steel is the least of the costs when it comes to manufacturing firearms. Good mills make very clean steel nowadays and it can be had in small quantities in India. There is no need for 'firearm grade steel'. Heat treatment of these steel is not rocket science. Infact you can machine it after heat treatment and not have to bother about steel moving post heat treatment. Making a firearm is not more complicated than many machined products made in India.
Trying to justify shoddy manufacturing and high prices by people out to make a quick buck, is not something expected of a firearms enthusiast. What these chaps are doing is understandable but not justifiable.

[mundaire]

Topic locked for the time being.

@ dsen your personal attack on a fellow member is noted, please consider this as an official warning, any further personal attacks on member(s) here would result in a permanent ban on your account.

We appreciate and thank our members for their continued assistance in keeping the discussions here clean and civil.

Cheers!