WEBLEY SCOTT SETS UP PLANT IN INDIA

[riflemarksman]

There are so many legal manufactureres of shotguns and iof makes rifles with all the latest cnc machining tell me one shotgun or rifle which other countries imports from india at present ............even countries like Nepal , Bangladesh and Sr lanka dont buy civil weapons from india.........its good that you are positive about our workmanship but after so many years of independence we cant comare our new guns with 70 to 80 year old english or european guns

[partheus]

You certainly have a point. I never said their stuff is actually as good as European ware. The private shotgun manufacturers make guns for local markets and that too sbl and dbl. Neither are internationally competitive as pump and semi autos are already the norm. Also, being legal enterprises, their market is limited to license holders only. Illegal manufacturers have no such limitations. As for their quality, only their customers could tell.

The IOF is hardly a good example. Regardless of what tech they have, a state enterprise is shielded against market vagaries because it works under a pseudo-socialist paradigm. Their employees can expect perpetual employment and a paycheck well into retirement which means they have no motive to improve. Illegal manufacturers like the ones in Munger on the other hand work in a free market where they may lose business to the next hut with a lathe if their stuff is found to be lacking. They have a motive to improve.

No doubt we have a quality problem. But, I cannot believe that there is something basically, or genetically lacking in the Indian population that we will forever be noncompetitive and unproductive. As Winnie said, the problem here is policy, not talent.

[pistolero]

A 25k revolver will cost 50k after taxes. There is nothing magical about making guns. The reason why reliable firearms are not made in India is policy rather than ability or competence of Indian manufacturers.

Completely agree.

150+ years of Gun Control, has left makers and users, with a complete loss of the understanding of firearms. Have been to Munger seen those smiths, while we might romanticize about their prowess, they need a serious upgrade of ancient skills. High quality techs can be created from any Polytechnic if there are assured jobs for them. Its not rocket science, and guess what, India is pretty decent at rocket science.

It is just apathy and the lack of a market, due to the licensing raj.

[riflemarksman]

Forget guns why can't India make a car engine by its own which can compete with Toyota or Mercedes......the fact is that even after copying technology neither India nor China can compete with the best in the buisness after all these years.........at the same time look at Germany and Japan these two countries were destroyed during ww2 and today Germany makes one of the best firearms and cars in the world and japan makes one of the best electronics and automoblies .......now don't tell me these things have nothing to do with the people of a country

[russianshooter3]

There are so many legal manufactureres of shotguns and iof makes rifles with all the latest cnc machining tell me one shotgun or rifle which other countries imports from india at present ............even countries like Nepal , Bangladesh and Sr lanka dont buy civil weapons from india.........its good that you are positive about our workmanship but after so many years of independence we cant comare our new guns with 70 to 80 year old english or european guns

Modern gun company - its 90% CNC machines and 10% control
For Example Pistol Efimova (Popov edition)


to produce such weapons from zero in India, you will need CNC machines approximately $ 10,000,000
Price (for local market) in Russia start 3500 USD for this pistol,In India i think start 9000-12000 USD for this pistol

[riflemarksman]

The cost is so high to set up the machine because import duties and local taxes are so high...... how can make in india be a sucess if setting up machines be so difficult and expensive...... because if manufacturing cost is high the product will be costly ..........let the issuing of licence be strict but let them manufacture and sell good quality and affordable guns for the common Indians.......what is the point in making shotguns which dont eject shells in which case its as good as a muzzelloader in a defence situation and what good is a Rs 1.25 lakh pistol which malfunction in between.....the funny part is IOF made better quality weapon and ammo 25 years back than now......one of the reason could be cost cutting using cheaper material

[partheus]

Forget guns why can't India make a car engine by its own which can compete with Toyota or Mercedes......the fact is that even after copying technology neither India nor China can compete with the best in the buisness after all these years.........at the same time look at Germany and Japan these two countries were destroyed during ww2 and today Germany makes one of the best firearms and cars in the world and japan makes one of the best electronics and automoblies .......now don't tell me these things have nothing to do with the people of a country

You can't seriously be suggesting that making car engines is easier than making guns. My point was you can't use singular examples such as these to broad-brush an entire people. If what you're saying is true then India shouldn't have become a major exporter of pharmaceuticals, textiles and software. Like all countries, we are good at things and bad at things. Will weapons manufacturing take root here? No one can say. As bad policy is indeed a reality, we can only try to affect changes in laws and see what happens next.

10 million for an industrial grade CNC machines seems about right. Just out of curiosity, anyone heard of Ghostgunner? It's a desktop CNC miller that can make AR15, 1911, Glock frames and costs only 1200 dollars. I wonder if it could be programmed to make slides, magazines and trigger assemblies as well?

[riflemarksman]

Since you mentioned there is nothing wrong with Indian people but the system is such and also monopoly and lack of facilities....but you forget that all these situations are created in the first place by the very same people who you are defending ........and instead of arguing give me an example where our goods are even good enough to compete with other forieng goods ........we should speak facts

[russianshooter3]

10 million for an industrial grade CNC machines seems about right. Just out of curiosity, anyone heard of Ghostgunner? It's a desktop CNC miller that can make AR15, 1911, Glock frames and costs only 1200 dollars. I wonder if it could be programmed to make slides, magazines and trigger assemblies as well?

Sir for you understanding we discuss large and medium industrial production, not garage workshop
For garage workshop CNC - 1200 USD its OK, for normal company its joke....
Example TULA TOZ plant
its territory 1040 m to 276 m - for all this territory making guns



other question its making barrels - its very very very long question - including drills, galvanic workshop and many other

And TOZ including many many other company like TOZ plastic http://toz-plastic.ru, TOZ-R http://www.toz-r.ru making industrial robots

[partheus]

Since you mentioned there is nothing wrong with Indian people but the system is such and also monopoly and lack of facilities....but you forget that all these situations are created in the first place by the very same people who you are defending ........and instead of arguing give me an example where our goods are even good enough to compete with other forieng goods ........we should speak facts

Royal Enfield, Luis Philippe, Micromax, MRF and many other Indian initiatives have all made serious international headway despite the many problems that exist here. It seems to you India is no different than a failed African state. Only it doesn't really seem so. Believe me, I am as troubled by our current state as any Indian. But I still think there's potential here.

Even if I do agree with you that things are truly hopeless, what do you suggest should be our next move?

[riflemarksman]

Its good that you are positive .....the next move should be first make the environment easy for buisness .....like granting permission to start manufacturing without creating unnecessary problems .........reduce taxes and make importing machines easier and reduce import duties .........bring more forieng companies so that there would be healthy competetion and more money should be put in R&D........bring the best minds and finish the govt type of mentality where there is no accountability......if they cant do this they should allow importing of guns from other countries which was stopped in the late 80s

[partheus]

Its good that you are positive .....the next move should be first make the environment easy for buisness .....like granting permission to start manufacturing without creating unnecessary problems .........reduce taxes and make importing machines easier and reduce import duties .........bring more forieng companies so that there would be healthy competetion and more money should be put in R&D........bring the best minds and finish the govt type of mentality where there is no accountability......if they cant do this they should allow importing of guns from other countries which was stopped in the late 80s

Exactly. All of which are policy reforms which is what me and other members here have stated. More people demanding change increases the likelihood of said change happening. Which is why educating people about their rights and realities is so important. The existential problem which no one here seems to either get or admit is that the very law enforcement authorities that by their own admission are incapable of performing their duties fully are also making it impossible for the citizens to take countermeasures to make up for their failures. And therein lies the hilarious irony of firearms. Countries where the law works as advertised and crime rates are low allow citizens to arm themselves, and countries where the law is broken go out of their way to stop their citizens from arming themselves when they are the ones who actually need to be armed.

[riflemarksman]

I agree

[russianshooter3]

Exactly. All of which are policy reforms which is what me and other members here have stated. More people demanding change increases the likelihood of said change happening. Which is why educating people about their rights and realities is so important. The existential problem which no one here seems to either get or admit is that the very law enforcement authorities that by their own admission are incapable of performing their duties fully are also making it impossible for the citizens to take countermeasures to make up for their failures. And therein lies the hilarious irony of firearms. Countries where the law works as advertised and crime rates are low allow citizens to arm themselves, and countries where the law is broken go out of their way to stop their citizens from arming themselves when they are the ones who actually need to be armed.

Sir for example about Indian guns
IOF making Excalibur SBR variants this rifle

If indian army not buy this, what problem start import (export from India) this rifle in other country?
In Russia have many people dont like AK ,dont like AR - its good cheap alternative Norinco AR rifle
If start selling this for price not high 500 USD many sport and hunting shooters buy this because CHEAP
and you guaranteed making 15000-20000 pcs this rifle in year for civil markets Russia Kazakstan Kyrgyzstan Belorussian and Armenia
Its good variant for carbine on 1-2 hunting (sporting) season - buy, not clean not nothing,after season send this Excalibur in garbage and buy NEW
But IOF dont do it
Basic Excalibur rifle not bad its chrome plated barrel,have picatinny rail for laser and tactical handle
In present I buy 300-400 USD AK - using 1-2 season and send this carbine in garbage and buy new
I dont care buy AK or AR or Excalibur if price 400-500 USD

[partheus]

Exactly. All of which are policy reforms which is what me and other members here have stated. More people demanding change increases the likelihood of said change happening. Which is why educating people about their rights and realities is so important. The existential problem which no one here seems to either get or admit is that the very law enforcement authorities that by their own admission are incapable of performing their duties fully are also making it impossible for the citizens to take countermeasures to make up for their failures. And therein lies the hilarious irony of firearms. Countries where the law works as advertised and crime rates are low allow citizens to arm themselves, and countries where the law is broken go out of their way to stop their citizens from arming themselves when they are the ones who actually need to be armed.

Sir for example about Indian guns
IOF making Excalibur SBR variants this rifle

If indian army not buy this, what problem start import (export from India) this rifle in other country?
In Russia have many people dont like AK ,dont like AR - its good cheap alternative Norinco AR rifle
If start selling this for price not high 500 USD many sport and hunting shooters buy this because CHEAP
and you guaranteed making 15000-20000 pcs this rifle in year for civil markets Russia Kazakstan Kyrgyzstan Belorussian and Armenia
Its good variant for carbine for 1-2 hunting (sporting) season - buy, not clean not nothing,after season send this Excalibur in garbage and buy NEW
But IOF dont do it
Basic Excalibur rifle not bad its chrome plated barrel,have picatinny rail for laser and tactical handle
In present I buy 300-400 USD AK - using 1-2 season and send this carbine in garbage and buy new
I dont care buy AK or AR or Excalibur if price 400-500 USD

I honestly have no idea why they don't offer it to other countries. Never followed the Excalibur saga. Or, maybe they did and it found no takers?