The power to stop of any gun bullet turns out to be a function of its ability to disrupt vital bodily functions, not the diameter or weight or initial shape of the bullet that strikes the victim. For example, the difference in the size of the entrance hole made by a .451" bullet compared to that made by a .355" bullet in an elastic (semi-self sealing) material like skin turns out to be largely irrelevant to stopping power. The idea (which I have heard expressed) that a bigger bullet makes a bigger hole to "bleed out" a man or an animal is faintly ridiculous.
The principle method of both stopping and killing with any firearm, whether rifle or pistol or shotgun, is the disruption of vital bodily functions. Fatally damage any animal's heart, liver, lungs, or central nervous system (including Homo sapiens) and it is not going to live long enough to bleed out. Fail to put your bullet in a vital spot and you are very likely to have a problem with a man or an animal. That is not to say that some bullet placements might not eventually cause death by loss of blood, or infection, or some other mechanism, but that is never the goal of any hunter OR gunfighter who wants an immediate one shot stop
stopping power
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eljefe
- Old Timer
- Posts: 2876
- Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:37 am
Absolutely.
Never mind the colorful or glorified definitions!
One of the best stoppers in Homo sapiens is in the upper JAW/MOUTH-goes straight through to a vital area of the brain called the Pons and 'switches off' all systems...never mind the menacing targets with X rings on forehead and heart area.
Similarly, in game animals, the accidently discovered 'Kidney shot', is a faster , instantaneous knock down-this I believe is due to the major vital hormone release which is postulated to STOP the heart period
however not recommended for dangerous game...
Never mind the colorful or glorified definitions!
One of the best stoppers in Homo sapiens is in the upper JAW/MOUTH-goes straight through to a vital area of the brain called the Pons and 'switches off' all systems...never mind the menacing targets with X rings on forehead and heart area.
Similarly, in game animals, the accidently discovered 'Kidney shot', is a faster , instantaneous knock down-this I believe is due to the major vital hormone release which is postulated to STOP the heart period
however not recommended for dangerous game...
''It dont mean a thing, if it aint got that zing!''
"...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..."
"...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..."
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Serious Redneck
- Learning the ropes
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:43 am
Re: stopping power
Creatures, either animals or man when shot die from one of two things; loss of blood or incapacitation of the central nervous system, which generally is extremely quick. Bullets when they pass through the body, crush and tear and break tissue, causing lots of bleeding. death through loss of blood can take some time, hitting the aorta or femoral artery helps speed it up. This is what "fatally damaging" a heart, lung or liver does. These organs don't just not like getting a bullet in them, they have vast volumes of blood going through them all the time. Kidneys filter blood constantly, hitting one of these is like opening a blood spigot (honestly I don't think hormones have anything to do with it. I think all kinds of hormones are released no matter where something gets shot.). If they hit the spine or head, they cause failure of that system, this is the instant death from one shot type of thing.
I've shot deer in the heart and lungs and one in the liver with a .50 bullet. None of them made it more than fifty yards and when I opened them up, there was like two gallons of blood in the chest cavity, so much so you could have washed in it. Death from blood loss. One I shot in the spine, paralizing its back half. This also severed some arteries. I put two more shots in its liver and lung for insurance. Death from blood loss.
All in all "knock down power" is a myth, what ever energy a projectile puts down range, the same is pushed back in recoil. the work is done by the destruction of the body. Hitting the spine or brain is desireable, second best is the major organs that pump, filter and oxygenate the blood. The U.S. FBI has done extensive studies on this matter and their reports are worth reading and publicly available.
Happy Day
I've shot deer in the heart and lungs and one in the liver with a .50 bullet. None of them made it more than fifty yards and when I opened them up, there was like two gallons of blood in the chest cavity, so much so you could have washed in it. Death from blood loss. One I shot in the spine, paralizing its back half. This also severed some arteries. I put two more shots in its liver and lung for insurance. Death from blood loss.
All in all "knock down power" is a myth, what ever energy a projectile puts down range, the same is pushed back in recoil. the work is done by the destruction of the body. Hitting the spine or brain is desireable, second best is the major organs that pump, filter and oxygenate the blood. The U.S. FBI has done extensive studies on this matter and their reports are worth reading and publicly available.
Happy Day
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Grumpy
- Old Timer
- Posts: 2653
- Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:43 am
- Location: UK
Re: stopping power
SR, there`s not too much point in arguing with el Jefe on the matter of gunshot wounds as he knows what he`s talking about - he`s an ER trauma specialist and has seen more gunshot wounds than you ( and especially I ! ) will ever encounter.
I don`t agree with your opinion on `Knock Down` power. The fact is that, assuming both generate the same energy, a slow, large diameter, heavy bullet is a more effective `stopper` than a high velocity lightweight bullet.
The FBI abandoned their 9mms because of a series of incidents in which felons were able to keep shooting after multiple hits with 9mm. They have adopted the .40 S&W. FBI Tactical Response units use specially built .45acp 1911 based pistols.
The American forces learnt in the Philipines that .38 calibre revolvers were inadequate man stoppers and adopted the .45. They have now found that the 9mm is woefully inadequate as a manstopper in Iraq and .45acp 1911A1s have been reissued from stores.......
Sub .375 calibres are not allowed for use on dangerous game in the whole of Southern Africa because there were too many incidents involving the use of smaller calibre rifles in which animals killed or severely wounded hunters - even after being hit in - supposedly - `critical` zones. The .375 H&H is regarded as the minimum requirement for dangerous game.
I don`t have one centrefire magnum. Many years of shooting and hunting have proved to me that they are largely a waste of time. Too much tissue damage, to much noise and not enough stopping power. The only time that I`d consider the use of a centrefire magnum is in places like Wyoming where a flat shooting calibre like the .300 Win Mag ( or a .338 mag for larger species ) is ideal because to the long range shots often required.
The last Fallow buck I shot was taken with a 220 gr 30-06 and fell on the spot at just over 300 yards range.
I don`t agree with your opinion on `Knock Down` power. The fact is that, assuming both generate the same energy, a slow, large diameter, heavy bullet is a more effective `stopper` than a high velocity lightweight bullet.
The FBI abandoned their 9mms because of a series of incidents in which felons were able to keep shooting after multiple hits with 9mm. They have adopted the .40 S&W. FBI Tactical Response units use specially built .45acp 1911 based pistols.
The American forces learnt in the Philipines that .38 calibre revolvers were inadequate man stoppers and adopted the .45. They have now found that the 9mm is woefully inadequate as a manstopper in Iraq and .45acp 1911A1s have been reissued from stores.......
Sub .375 calibres are not allowed for use on dangerous game in the whole of Southern Africa because there were too many incidents involving the use of smaller calibre rifles in which animals killed or severely wounded hunters - even after being hit in - supposedly - `critical` zones. The .375 H&H is regarded as the minimum requirement for dangerous game.
I don`t have one centrefire magnum. Many years of shooting and hunting have proved to me that they are largely a waste of time. Too much tissue damage, to much noise and not enough stopping power. The only time that I`d consider the use of a centrefire magnum is in places like Wyoming where a flat shooting calibre like the .300 Win Mag ( or a .338 mag for larger species ) is ideal because to the long range shots often required.
The last Fallow buck I shot was taken with a 220 gr 30-06 and fell on the spot at just over 300 yards range.
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Grumpy
- Old Timer
- Posts: 2653
- Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:43 am
- Location: UK
Re: stopping power
Who has upset you now Vickers ?
As you might expect, it`s the .44 mag
- but all four are very effective.
As you might expect, it`s the .44 mag
- but all four are very effective.
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Vikram
- We post a lot
- Posts: 5108
- Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:14 am
- Location: Tbilisi,Georgia
Re: stopping power
Oh, None Grumps. Just in case some one should,y' see. 
Always liked the .44 mag though never had the chance to shoot it.
Best-
Vikram
Always liked the .44 mag though never had the chance to shoot it.
Best-
Vikram
It ain’t over ’til it’s over! "Rocky,Rocky,Rocky....."