The Indian Army’s .303 story

[ckkalyan]

Thanks for sharing these old images gwattal

THE BRITISH ARMY IN INDIA DURING THE INTER WAR PERIOD

The forge at a tribal arms factory in the Kohat Pass on the North West Frontier of India. Here were manufactured copies of British Army rifles.


A finished copy of the Rifle No.1 Mk.III, Short Magazine Lee Enfield (SMLE), produced at a tribal arms factory in the Kohat Pass on the North West Frontier of India

From the website above

[TC]

Fantastic find Kalyan Da,

Thanks for sharing the photos


TC

[kshitij]

Came across this and thought i must share it with you guys



Remember reading somewhere on this thread about how enemy forces facing the british armed with this rifle thought they came under machine gun fire. The video kinda explains why...

[gurbir22]

Hello everyone,

found these interesting videos on YouTube




Regards
Gurbir

[eljefe]

TC
I stumbled across this now...
The Rubber bullet mod had the barrel cut down and an adaptor screwed onto it. I’m guessing about 3/4 to 1” in dia. And about a 12” long.
I used one about 25 years ago , courtesy a Copper who was also a gun lover. The projectile is /was a pointed rod of softish, black rubber about the same length as the adapter.
It was muzzle loaded, pointy end facing out. A standard blank was loaded and it was aimed 3/4 of the distance to the target and fired so that the rubber projectile hit the ground and bounced up to about knee height when it reached the target. Direct fire was NOT encouraged. At least that’s what I was told by the cop. We tried out the 3/4 of the length, and various distances , including direct aimed shots at a Fig 11 at 50 m, and even a couple of shots in the air. When aimed to bounce off the ground, it tumbled and went sideways into the Fig. 11

I own a No. 4 and a long Tom in .303 and love the old ladies.
I bought a single shot break action Rossi .410 /.22 switch barrel some years ago and soon learnt to reload as the cost of ammo was very high. An old bloke at the club taught me to anneal and reform .303 cases into very decent .410 loads.
The First step to convert 303 cases for .410 was
Make sure they were boxer primed
thin the rim or they wouldn’t fit into the shotty.
Anneal necks and shoulder
Run them into a bigger FLS die- I used a 9.3x62- makes them pretty straight wall.
Prime with LP primers
Load with 5-6 gr of any pistol powder
Cram in a wad of toilet paper as OP wad
Sooji or cream of wheat till the case mouth
Seal with TP and soap
In a safe place, point it straight up and shoot.
Some cases came out nicely fireformed but others had a coke bottle shape, which opened up in a couple of reloads.
I do all this with no press, just hand tools. And now, use a .38 FLS die to open up the mouth.
These cases never need any resizing, last for ever , very minute of rabbit, and I use everything from shot,3x000 sg, and 150 gr 0.356” wadcutters which group 3-4” offhand at 25m. And have just made a few 150 gr wadcutters with a 12mm cork cylinder glued and screws onto the base to enhance accuracy.

Forgot to mention earlier, I also use black powder ‘square loads’ of 1/2 Oz Ffg and 1/2 Oz no. 7 shot for the .303/.410 shells. Since I taught my son this , he loves letting them off and photographing the blast, smoke and flash at dusk.
Makes cleaning the bbl a PITA. But they’re as Effective as smokeless loads
Good therapy to get through this lockdown

[HairyTrigger]

Gurbir, if I a going to nitpick the video I will say it was not comparing a British and an Indian rifle but a Lee Enfield from the No.1 MKIII SMLE family (the 2A/2A1) which happens to be made in India (AFAIK India is the only country who made a No.1 MKIII from the ground up as a 7.62x51 caliber rifle; the British have converted some) and a No.4 which happens to be made in Canada. The narrator seems to imply by his choice of words that what makes them different is country of manufacture.

With that said, I thought the Ishapore front sight guards in the 2A were solid and squarish. Am I wrong?

[timmy]

Yes, the front sight guard on the RFI 2A/2A1 does have squarish ears, as opposed to the SMLE No.1 Mk 3's rounded ears.

I enjoyed the videos, especially the short "Forgotten Weapons" clip of the 410 Musket. I wish now that I'd gotten one before retirement. Around these parts, most have been converted to shotshell use, like the one in the video, but I would have insisted on the original brass case, as eljefe details in his post. It would be very simple to cast round balls (sometimes called "pumpkin balls" or, better yet, "punkin balls") and load them up with some Unique for a little bit of fun!

I do have my own opinion regarding the video maker's rating comparison between the RFI 2A and the No 4 Mk 1: The SMLE looks a lot nicer, to my eyes, than the Enfield No 4 Mk 1. Also, 7.62x51/308 brass is much easier to come by than 303, so that's another advantage for the RFI, along with the fact that 7.62x51 has a 308 groove diameter, while the 303 is 311 or more. This makes bullets for the RFI much easier to buy or cast, which is a plus in my book. However, whichever one of these rifles one may be fortunate enough to own, (especially a "Long Lee!), they are great rifles and offer the special feeling that no new rifle can offer. These guns offer a part of history on your shoulder or on your rifle rack.

[eljefe]

Tim
I was playing a round and crimped some 124gr cast 9mm pills in the mouth of the reformado .410 shells like original crimped in the mouth pumpkin balls. The case mouth blew up! No harm to gun or me. So now I load all the solids in the case with cork wad.
My analysis was- too violent an expansion of the taper crimped case mouth. If I get around to a .395” Lee RB mould, I might have better results.
It will be interesting if one can FIND and take apart an original .410 KF old to see what wad was used.

The load I used was the same, regular, blue dot or AP70 aka Unique.
I have heard from RFI .410 musket owners that they will not chamber factory .410 commercial shotshells, no personal experience.

Gunsmiths here will not build a .308 on Mk111 actions and prefer the No. 4 exclusively, citing the same action strength issues.

My No. 4 and the Long Tom are .314” and I was lucky to latch onto a .316” mould from CBE.

[timmy]

Asif:

"Goofy" bore sizes are always an issue. I have heard of those CBE moulds and thought about one a lot, but the brass scared me off. I do aluminum (OK) and iron (I'm more comfortable with this). None of the mainline mould makers here have a real 577-450 mould. I did find an RCBS mould for Ruger 480 in a 400 gr weight and bought that to try (and to try and save my shoulder!) but the place I went to was Accurate Molds. (accuratemolds.com -- no "u" in moulds!) The thing with this fellow is that he will make the mould in any size -- you just tell him what alloy mix you're using and the diameter you want.

Mine is a Nepal cache rifle, a Mk IV, and they tend toward larger bores, so I ordered my mould at 0.471" for 20:1 lead/tin. It's nominally 475 gr, so near the original weight:



His prices are only slightly more than SAECO, which are very nice moulds, and when I got mine in the mail, it looks like a real jewel! I only mention this in case you get stuck sometime, and need an odd size. I'm about to the point where my mould selection is taken care of, so if I need something else, I will probably have Accurate make what I need. The one caveat is that he always has a meplat on all his designs, due to the way he makes them, but this allows him to make whatever size you want. BTW, if you want a design that's not in his catalog, he says he'll work on a new design, as well.

[eljefe]

Thanks, Timmy
is yours a Gahendra?
I'm full up on my moulds...Besides the CBE ,a Hoch single cavity nose pour drops 0.425" for the .404, Lee .312" 155gr for the x39,another beagled Lee 155 which i used initially for the .303's, Saeco 160gr, RCBS 145 gr and 168gr 0.285" for the 7x57,RCBS 55gr .225 for the .223 and another Lee TL .45 for the GC Trophy national match, Lee 0.690 pumpkin ball and 7/8 oz slug moulds for 12ga. I have another H&G for the .45, on loan to a friend.Simply the most accurate mould I've ever casted with.
I have read about Accurate Molds and his fine service, and the good performance.David Commens of CBE offers stellar service and excellent quality. A lot of his designs are Loverin type.
I am a meplat fan, made myself a Lyman 'push through type' with a 66% meplat for the .404 and 7mm. Can vary weights on those by way of changeable EDM nose to keep the pill as long(heavy) or short (Lighter) as needed. Smooth sided 'slicks', ideal for the HITEK coating !
Trimmed my rather eclectic battery down by a couple of dozen,and kids have laid claim on all the guns
Because of the HITEK, I tend to run my pills at approx 15 BHN and am lucky to have scrounged a fair bit of Lino.In a pinch, I have access to the local Northern Smelters excellent 'hardball' which is Lyman No.2 equivalent
I am tempted to look at cast for the .416 Ruger, but it needs a bedding, accuracy work up job and a new recoil pad- When I get bored out of my head...
I did a batch of 20:1 for the x39 and with home made beeswax-Olive oil-Lanolin-2T lube, i got some great sub MOA accuracy , with a vertical dispersion of 5-7mm,using 11.5 gr Blue Dot. Not changing that one!
Mate here, Tony Small, built me a few rifles and is a MH fan. he has them in many calibers, from .577/.500, to his own wildcats of .17 and .222/.25.IIRC he also has a takedown MH in .450/.400.

[timmy]

Asif:

No, mine is Enfield-made. The Gahendras are quite interesting, but I understand that the barrels are hammer-forged over a mandrel and can split, so I steered clear. Actually I wasn't looking for one when I came across this one for sale and took the plunge.

You have a great collection of moulds! That Hoch mould sounds very nice, and the H&G is the gold standard! I would very much have liked to have obtained one, but I never started a serious search. I ended up with SAECO for 38 and 45, both bevel base target bullets (#52 like the H&G, and the 200 gr semi wad cutter #68 for the 45), since that's all the work those guns do. It would be nice to have a more "serious" bullet for 38, as one of them is a Detective Special, but over here, it's said that every bullet has a lawyer and some think that anything other than store-bought is asking for trouble in court, should things come to that.

Two possibilities for more Accurate Mold products come to mind: For my Turkish Forestry Carbine (8x50R Lebel) I got one of those Lee moulds for a 8x56 Hungarian -- Lebel needs a 0.3275" bullet, and the Lee was a low cost choice for a gun that may not be shot so much. Also, for a Husqvarna bolt action 45-70, I have one of those Lyman collar button moulds that make gallery bullets. I've toyed around with getting a "serious" bullet for it which might be useful for pigs in Texas. But that Husqvarna is very light (it's barely more than a 22!) and I'm not sure I'm up to that kind of punishment.

The big chore ahead is making 577-450 cases from the 24 ga shotgun brass, which I have not started yet.

I have a 75 gr Lyman mould for feeding the CZ-52 and CZ-70. Maybe someday, I'll get a real 45 Colt mould, but the SAECO 45 Auto mould does double duty in that department right now. I'm also going to need a 9mm mould if I get a new one of those, to satisfy practice needs. For the 270, I have a 150 gr RCBS mould and the RFI 2A is served by a 180 gr RCBS. Other than the two moulds for the Martini I mentioned earlier, the last one is that same Lee 155 gr mould for feedign all of the Bolshevik-related members of the stable. Something has to change there, too, as I'd really like something in the 200 gr range for the Finn M39.

My older son's adventures in Texas have landed him with a huge supply of Linotype. Last Thanksgiving, when we met, he brought up a couple hundred pounds, but I would like to get all that he has, if I can. That is a logistical problem yet to be solved. Col. Harrison, in the NRA Cast Bullet Handbook, says to use it straight in 38 target loads, as it is worth a MoA over just lead-tin, so I think I will need to figure out how to get the rest of his trove.

Casting for 416 Ruger -- that sounds like a lot of fun! I like sticking with those cartridges that are friendly to lead. I keep looking at those old Swedish rollers that come up every now and then in 12.7x44R, but really, I need one like I need a hole in my head. But truly, very little of this needs a reason, does it?

But back to the MH, your friend sounds like he has fun! When I think of all of the military single shots of the 1870-1900 era, I keep coming back to the MH: striker fired, simpler than a roller to operate, powerful: I think it really was a top design for those days. That British Empire stuff was very capable, and seems to have been chosen with a lot of thought and care. Same with the SMLE and its ancestors and descendants. I got the 2A because I wanted one, and because I wanted an Indian gun, and this gave the opportunity to have both in one. When friends have come over and I've showed that one to them, invariably I get an interesting facial study when they see the Asoka stamped on the buttstock socket. It opens up a great area of conversation over gun ownership.

Loverin boolits: Lyman doesn't carry those any longer, and I would have preferred a Loverin design for the 2A. Maybe someday, as my 30 caliber days may not be completed yet!