Shotgun buying advice for a newbie (in the UK)

[Grumpy]

"Anand is 'Hamiclar01' - the mad Cambridge gas-passer."

Yeah, I knew that.........I did.........until I forgot it ! What an idiot !
I`m not well you know.........Feel like sh1t. Deaf as a post. Outer ear infections in both ears. Hurt like heck. Aching joints, aching back, thick head. And what I want to know is `why` ? I`ve never had an ear infection before.

Well that`s my excuse anyway.

[hamiclar01]

sorry to hear that grumpy . take care, and get well soon, from all of us!

[Mack The Knife]

And what I want to know is `why` ? I`ve never had an ear infection before.

Must be all those dirty jokes you listen to....

[shooter]

I have bought my second shottie. classic doubles model 92 28" m/c sporter. in addition to grumpy for his advice, i would esp. like to thank vikram for his efforts and help in helping me find the right gun.
thanks to all other members for ur tips.
pics to follow soon.

[Grumpy]

Good guns the Classic Doubles. Winchester 101s made in Japan........but I expect that I`ve said that already !

[shooter]

this m92 has a red bead. although it doesnt fit me very well sid asked me to try it out. so i tried it on the rabbit stand where i began badly but was getting better. with this gun, i dusted them. was it because i was getting to know the target better anyway or did it have something to do with the red bead, of which i was more aware, in my peripheral vision?

[Grumpy]

Might be worthwhile checking your eyes just to make sure that you don`t have central vision ( no dominance ) or a not particularly dominant right eye.
People either get on with red or green dot `Tru-Glo` type beads or they don`t. Those that don`t find them very distracting. Because I have to shoot off the left shoulder but have a dominant right eye I find modified Tru-Glo type beads an advantage.
If you haven`t already got one on the 425 it might be worth fitting one - which is very easy. Coincidentally, the place where you bought the Classic Doubles - The Gun Shop, Rugby - is the UK agent for Tru-Glo beads. There are various types but either the `Universal` ( £14.50 ) or the ordinary TRUGLO ( £19.95 ) is what you`ll need.
http://www.gunshoprugby.com/?page=2&detail=95 or
http://www.gunshoprugby.com/?page=2&detail=92
Postage will be cheap because of them being so light.
Give them a call to discuss your particular needs, the gun, etc, before you make a decision.

Of course it might be the case that, contrary to what you believe, the Classic Doubles actially fits you better than the 425.

[shooter]

i read ads about how truglo beads help cross eyedominance. if you shoot off your lt. shoulder, why do you find it particularly useful?

on the classic m 92 it wasnt the truglo bead but a ... how do i put it, non glow simple opaque plastic sight. think of it as a bead but red in colour. the stock is much too short for me. my eye doesnt sit just above the rib when i look in the mirror. i dont see just half the rib as were supposed to. i miss teal with it or any target on the rise or falling. its just the rabbits i nailed.
with my 425, even when i mount with eyes closed, the 2 beads form a perfect figure of eight every time. and im able to nail crossers with increasing accuracy with it. eg, first time with left to right crossers, with a club miroku, 1-2/10, with my gun, first round, 1/10 second round, 2/10 third 6/10, since then stay between 6 and seven.

would having a red truglo bead on my 425 not detract from the beauty and the value of the gun?

[shooter]

a few weeks back iwas shooting sporting clays when a gentleman who is 'very good' told me i was holding my gun wrong.
that is because my nose wasnt touching the stock (it was very close to it.) and my right arm and elbow were not paralell to the ground.

when i tried touching my nose to the stock, i couldnt see the rib. i thought nose should roughly point roughly towards the base of thumb and its ok to have elbow at a 45% angle to the groung. in fact someone told me (mundaire is a witness) that doing so will close in the shoulder pocket and in fact ensure snug fit to the shoulder pocket.

i then tried to see pics of championships and most people didnt have level elbows except a few trap shooters. and similarly, many of them had a gap between the nose and the stock.
later another lady, a supporter of the-nose-touching-the-stock-school told me to imagine my nose stuck to the stock with blue tac/glue.

when i handled 'very good's gun, i found i needed to touch the stock to see the rib correctly. but in my gun i have to stop short of touching it.

i hope ive not wasted money by buying a gun that doesnt fit. i find i get tired more easily when i hold elbows level rather than anangle.

can someone please help me out?

[Grumpy]

Not `cross-eye` dominance - left or right eye dominance. `Cross-eyed` means something else................as in `Clarence the cross-eyed Lion`.
There`s only one version of the TRUGLO bead that is designed to deal with an incorrect eye dominance problem - The `Anti-Dominant eye sight` but it`s reckoned by many not to work. I`ve never tried one so can`t comment. I used to make my own `anti-dominant eye` sight using the ordinary ( now £19.95 ) TRUGLO sight as a basis but don`t have one left.
Your improving score doesn`t necessarily mean that the gun fits you, only that you are improving at compensating for the gun fit. If the fit was right you would, logically, have scored 6-7 the first time you used it.
As far as the two beads are concerned just take a look around and check just how many top shots use two beads. The problem with using two beads is that they encourage people to aim rather than point the gun and they also cause the user to much more readily ( and easily ) self-compensate for gun fit. It is remarkably easy to convince oneself that a gun fits by mounting it and pointing it at a mirror but muscle memory - even with the eyes closed - can be extraordinarily precise.
It`s also remarkable how much self-delusion concerning gun fit ( and other things ) can occur with the acquisition of a new gun.
I`m not saying that your gun doesn`t fit you.........just that it might not.
The TRUGLO sights don`t mark a gun at all. They either clip over the sides of the rib or stick ovto the rib ( with a self-adhesive pad. ) You just have to unscrew the original bead.

[shooter]

sorry my mistake. dont know why i typed that esp since ive briefly worked in ophthalmology.
i agree with 2 beads thing. by telling you they line up i meant to tell u that gun lines up perfectly.

i dont line up beads, if i do, i miss therefore i look at the clay. i thought was missing behind as i wast giving enough lead.
can you give me a few pointers about how to test for a fit as i have tried all the recommended ways ive read about like length of forearm, nose 2 inches behind base of thumb, eye above wrist, less cast for thin neck etc.
maybe then my other post is related to this one (touch nose with elbow level)

[shooter]

i miss more left to right crossers than right to left. does that mean i have a bad fitting gun
( considering i dont give enough lead in both the scenarios.) as it is, the brownings are known for not having much cast (the japanese ones.)

[Grumpy]

I`d be inclined to ask a moderator to bring your two threads together as they are both on the same matter. This is an involved subject and I don`t feel like having to repeat myself.

One simple exercise concerning the crossing birds:

Imagine the birds crossing in front of you. It`s important that you DON`T think of any particular stand - or any stand at alll - but generally with an equal view to each side. You`re just visualising the clays with no gun in your hands. It`s important that your thoughts are free and natural - consider the events too much and you will manipulate and control events.
First imagine the right to left crosser.
Now the left to right.
I`ll bet you that the right to left crossers you visualise are quite near to you and start their travel just to your right.
The left to right crossers start much further to your left in comparison, are further from you and the clay appears smaller.
Right ?

Now imagine the same but with the gun in your hands.

With the right to left crosser you put the gun up easily and positively and push the gun into the clay.
With the left to right crosser you dither about acquiring the clay and do so much earlier in the clays flight. You put the guns muzzles under the clay and then accelerate your swing lifting the muzzles to obliterate the clay. You don`t point the gun positively and you don`t push the gun into the clay.
If you imagined pulling the trigger you smashed the right/left crosser right on the muzzles - probably in front of you or just to your left.
The left/right crosser you missed - probably also just to your left.

How did I do ?

By the way, on the matter of gun fit: How can the gun fit you for some shots but not for others ? It`s fitted for right to left crossers only ? Doesn`t make sense does it ?

[shooter]

dear ifg guru-mpy, im at a loss for words. wow. how did you do it? you have to tell me.
mods plz give him the 9th bullet for the title of ifg psychic.

regards to the fit for left to right crossers questions:

if a gun has less cast (for a right hander.), it will shoot to the left.
that means it will shoot behind a left to right crosser and in front of right to left crosser. and a bad fit will reasult in both being missed.

but if a bad shot like me doesnt give enough lead, he will miss a lot behind lt. to rt. crosser and just on the target in the case of rt. to lt.

im not saying this is definately the case with me but it is possible in theory.

also ur post didnt answer the touch-nose-elbow..... question.

[Grumpy]

Touching your nose to the stock just means that your eye is as far right ( for a right-hander ) as possible and therefore most likely to be behind the rib. Stocks will be cast on for a right hander and off for a left hander. The amount of cast required depends on the build of the individual shooter and the shape and thickness of the stock, particularly around the comb. Modern type O/U guns are very slightly cast - some are even dead straight - which is an adaptation of the `one size fits all` maxim........except that in reality the cast fits barely anyone. The shooter jams his head into the stock and adjusts the hold of the gun attempting to get the eye looking straight down the rib but invariable relaxes with the gun then not being pointed straight resulting in a subsequent drop in scores. If the cast is correctly set the fit ( providing that the drop is also correct ) is right for ALL shots.
Lifting the elbow DOES close the `pocket`and also helps promote a more aggresive gun forward stance. As holding the elbow into the body is even more uncomfortable a slight lift - less than 45 degrees in practice - should not be a problem. Worrying about maintaining the elbow exactly parallel to the ground is not conducive to good shooting and isn`t necessary anyway. Just concentrate on lifting the elbow a little......and not too much. If lifting the elbow really is uncomfortable make sure that you don`t have a physical problem with your shoulder however it could just be that the stock is little too long or too short coupled with an overly tight grip.
Most new shooters also locate the front hand too far back on the fore-end. Placing the hand further forward - but so that you are still comfortable - also helps provide a more aggressive stance. The combination of nose in, elbow up and hand forward not only looks right but will make the shooter feel right. The stance - combined with correct foot placement - feels, and is, more assertive with the gun forward and `pushing` at the birds. Confidence is a huge part of clay shooting and looking `right`, feeling `right` will inevitably inprove ones scores.
There`s nothing psychic about my de.scription of your feelings when attempting to imagine - and shoot - crossing birds. In general terms it`s pretty much how all beginners ( and some quite experienced shooters ) feel.
It`s actually a combination of two things: Experience and how the brain deals with being right ( or left ) handed. You will be much more aware - and knowledgable about - the mental mechanics/processes involved for obvious reasons but in simple terms the situation is as follows: All right handers feel more natural about shooting clays coming from the right. So much so that you don`t even bother to imagine the initial travel of the right to left crosser. Feeling more natural ( and confident ) about your ability to deal with the clay very much helps in actuslly hitting the clay. Experience reinforces that confidence because you know that you are likely - in your case about 70% - to hit the clay. Confidence breeds confidence.
The situation with the left to right crosser is quite different: Being right handed your brain perceives the clay differently and is much less comfortable ( and less confident ) in dealing with it. The experience of missing what is always - mentally - going to be a more ( mentally ) difficult shot - saps your confidence even futher. Because you usually miss the shot you analyse the situation more thoroughly and consider the flight in more detail. You `see` - mentally and in practice - the clay much earlier in its flight which gives you more time to think about it and how you are going to deal with it. You track the clay with the nuzzles below it because that`s the only way you can see the clay ! You then realise that by tracking the clay you will probably shoot behind it and below it so you accelerate the barrels up and through the clay as you pull the trigger. The shot will be above and ahead of the clay in such circumstances EXCEPT if you compound the sorry saga by stopping the barrels as you pull the trigger in which case the shot will probably be behind the clay. ALWAYS keep the barrels moving after the shot.
The resulting failure promotes an increasingly lack of confidence and increasing analysis which casises more failure which......
Its`s the failure of reason over instinct. It can be dealt with but requires some serious mental effort and visualising. The same technique as high jumpers use prior to the jump in which they visualise the jump prior to taking it.......and visualise a succesful jump ! Shooting is a balance od many things but once the physical mechanics are in place instinct rather than analylis should prevail.
The situation for left-handed shooters is exactly the same, just reversed.