Who is in your opinion the best General in the history of mankind?

[L0neW0lf]

"wars exist because the man exists" and till we are the wars shall go on. But only a few are destined to lead many into them. Who in your opinion was the best general and what made you chose what you chose? Like I personally like Erwin Rommel as a General he belongs to the last greatest war of mankind the WW2 served every kind of terrain. Had a deadly knowledge of the modern Tank warfare and Blitzkreig the past Torrent warfare. I believe if he had helicopter support or Sat support at that time he would have been invincible on the war field.

[Woods]

Ervin Rommel definitely . Way ahead than Patton , or Nimitz.

[I Like Pie]

Gaius Marius.
-He created the Roman Cohort formation and created the first true professional Roman army by recruiting from the landless poor. (Roman armies were previously made up of only men from land owning families). It is argued the Roman Empire could not have occurred without Marius' military restructuring and reform.
-He was a noble only by marriage (he married Julius Caesar's aunt.) and although not noble by blood, he was elected to Consul seven times (The record for the Republic period).
-His famous wars were the Cimbrian War (Rome vs. the Cimbri and the Teutone Germanic tribes), the Numidian War in Africa, and the First Civil War in Rome against Sulla, another great general Marius mentored.

Certainly one of the best.

[Shivaji.Dasgupta]

It should be Erwin Romel. His speed and tactics are still subjects of study in armored vehicles battles. also he fought in a totally new environment where German troops were never trained sufficiently.

[goodboy_mentor]

Labeling someone as a "best general" is a very subjective matter since there are so many variables at play that can reduce or elevate a same general as best or worst general.

There has to be good combination of general and his soldiers. General has to very practical, know the weakness and strength of his force and his enemy force and have a good strategy. Similarly soldiers have to properly equipped, trained and fairly motivated to fight even till the point of death.

In my opinion, "the best" general is the one who can produce best results despite the overwhelming odds against him. I do not have to go very far because there are plenty of examples within the Indian sub continent. I will concentrate on generals in history of Punjab, especially that of the Sikhs because history of Punjab defined what happened to rest of Northern India and history of Northern India had effect on southern India and well as other parts.

The strategies adopted by Guru Gobind Singh were excellent, despite having handful of soldiers he was able to defeat the combined forces of hill Rajahs almost 12 times, ultimately leading them to ask for help from Aurangzeb.

Banda Singh Bahadur was an excellent general who was able able to create a sovereign Sikh State between the Mughal garrison cities of Delhi and Lahore are destroying the Mughal garrison town of Sirhind.

During Misl Period, there are so many generals despite overwhelming odds and hostile population were able to produce results. Notable among them are Jassa Singh Ahluwalia and Baghel Singh. When the news of Ahmad Shah Abdali reaching Punjab reached Maratha garrisons stationed in Lahore and Multan, Marathas simply fled. It was the Generals of Sikh Misls who had to face Ahmad Shah Abdali with there own strategies.

Ahmed Shah Durranny accordingly left Kundahar, with his whole force; and as soon as it was known that he had crossed the Attock, all the Marhatta garrisons in Lahore and Multan, fled without waiting for his nearer approach.

Source http://persian.packhum.org/persian//pf? ... 1010&ct=17

British sitting in Fort William at Kolkata were panicked that Ahmad Shah Abdali might turn his attention towards Bihar and Bengal for further plunder. Maratha letters communicating with the British tell that British were very pleased to know that Sikhs were destroying Ahmad Shah Abdali by using their guerrilla tactics. Misl generals ultimately defeated Ahmad Shah Abdali who ultimately decided peace with them. This matter is already discussed here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24760&start=30#p245057

Then there was Baghel Singh who with a few thousand soldiers was able make one hundred thousand soldiers of Mughal empire surrender. He raised the Khalsa flag on Red Fort in Delhi around 1783, built around eight historic Gurudwaras that still stand today, Shah Alam signed and gave around 1200 acres of land of Raelseema village on which today the Indian Parliament, North and South Block stand. The Tees Hazari(thirty thousand) Court Complex in Delhi today is the place where thirty thousand soldiers under command of Baghel Singh were stationed.

The principles of armored warfare tactics pioneered by General Guderian are reminiscent of Sikh warfare during the Misl era. Sikh Misls preferred to fight large armies in lightly armed, highly mobile columns utilizing the element of surprise. Moving at lightning speed, Misls would race around armies, destroy lines of communication, food stores and split the opposing forces. They would invariably engage the enemy at the flank. Misls were acutely aware of the need to generate force multipliers in battle. Misls preferred the cavalry unit universally and preferred movement at night. In many instances Misls would move their cavalry units in forced marches of up to 48 hours. Misls valued mobility over all other battle factors. Misls would frequently engage enemy armies two to five times their size. In Sikh warfare experience fixed position battles were costly and risky especially since the enemy was invariably highly motivated and better armed. It is worth noting that the Sikhs have never fought a battle in which they have had a numerical majority.

As the Sikh confederacy merged, the Misl period came to an end and the Misl Theory of Warfare disappeared. The greatness of General Heinz Guderian was that he canonized the theory of blitzkrieg armoured warfare in his treatise - Achtung Panzer. The Sikhs never nurtured or canonized their conceptual innovations and they still follow this anti-tradition to this day. But you cannot canonize anything if you don’t have civilization and civilization cannot be created in the absence of time and space.

Then there is Hari Singh Nalwa, the General of Ranjit Singh. Internet search tells me that there was a debate in around the year 1881 in British and French newspapers about who is the greatest general and it was concluded it is Hari Singh Nalwa. His battles of Nowshera, Attock and Jamrud are well known and also a matter of folklore. He was able to stop the invasions, for the first time in the history of this Indian sub continent happening from Darra Khyber pass for thousands of years since the time of Alexander. Even the British later on did not take the route through Darra Khyber pass, instead went from Kandahar side to invade Afghanistan. Even the Pakistanis admire Hari Singh Nalwa today and have praise for him, it has been discussed in another post here in this Youtube video viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24748#p246348

Then we have another Sikh Lt. General Harbaksh Singh from Punjab, hardly anyone knows about his brilliant contribution by bluntly refusing to obey the orders of his incompetent and silly Chief of Indian Army to retreat his troops to the eastern side of river Beas on face of Armored thrust by Pakistan and instead faced and successfully stopped the armored thrust -

The situation on the 7th afternoon was grim, while the Division fell back to the village of Asal Uttar and hurriedly prepared a defended sector based on the surviving three-and-a-half battalions and the 2nd (Indp) Armoured Brigade. On the 9th, Pakistan's 1st Armoured Division, whose existence was not known to us, attacked the Division. Their operational order was captured by us. The plan was to attack and overrun the weak 4 Division while a strong combat group was to cut the lines of communication of both 4 Division, 7 Division on the Barki Axis and finally to cut the GT Road at the Beas Bridge, effectively sealing off 11 Corps HQs and Corps troops at Raya, and the LOFC of 15 Division in one sweep.

The situation was extremely grim and as a consequence Delhi panicked.

Having returned to HQ Western Army at Ambala from 4 Division at midnight on the 9th and after a visit to the operations room, the Army Commander retired for three hours rest before leaving at four' clock the next morning. The instructions to me, his ADC, was not to awaken him unless it was urgent. At 2.30 a.m. the Army Chief, General J.N. Chaudhary, called and spoke to the General and after a heated discussion centered around the major threat that had developed, the Chief ordered the Army Commander to withdraw 11 Corps to hold a line on the Beas river. General Harbakhsh Singh refused to carry out this order.

The next morning, 4 Division stabilised the position and when the Chief visited command headquarters at Ambala that afternoon, the 10th, the crisis was over and the subject was not discussed. Had the General carried out these orders, not only would have half of Punjab been under Pakistani occupation but the morale of the Indian Army would have been rock bottom, affecting operations in other theatres as well.

When Gen Harbaksh Singh died, his funeral was on November 15, 1999. Very few knew about it, therefore apart from his friends and contemporaries, former officers of the Sikh Regiment of which he had been colonel for over a decade, and others such as I, who had been on his staff, gathered at the Delhi cantonment to say our final farewell.

Source http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/g ... ier.30304/

With the final march past of the legendary Lt. General Harbaksh Singh, VC, PVSM,PB,PV who commanded not only the columns but the hearts of the people in uniform or otherwise, has now got himself a prime place in the glittering pages of the Indian history.

The general got himself in the Indian Army in 1939, though immediately thereafter the political leadership spearheading the independence movement gave a call for boycott of the recruitment to the armed forces. The presence of a large number of entrants of that time from Punjab in the Indian Army thus proved only one point that but for the presence in large number of these soldiers during the 1947 and 1965 war with Pakistan the result would have been catastrophic.

During the 1965 Indo-Pak War the determined strategy and action plan of this war hero created legends and got him applause not only from friends but secret admiration from foes also. His war dispatches published later were sold and read more in Pakistan than in India. In an exclusive interview to the writer of these lines the General in his eighties, was too youthful to shell out his reminiscences about the Army Chief General J. N. Choudhry's suggestion to realign his forces behind Beas, which has become sort a folklore. Giving details of this, he said that he was asked by Gen. Choudhry to come to Delhi for discussion but impressed upon him that he cannot move out from the front and later the meeting was held at Ambala. He also recalled that Chief's aircraft came escorted by two bombers and during his meeting he was able to convince the chief that the battle has not been lost and the apparent reverses are not a panic sign but this is quite a common phenomena in any war. "This suggestion was not at all acceptable to me. We would have lost Amritsar, Khamkharan, Pathankot. Then why were we fighting. J & K would have been cut off, then what was the use. I told the Chief about it that if we loose J & K then what for we are fighting?" said General.

He recalled that his strategy was too simple that the enemy tank may penetrate deep inside but have to have the support of the soft vehicles. To prevent this he had a determined plan not to allow any Paki vehicle on the road. And he proved right too.

Recalling his contribution and determination, Lt. Gen. B. M. Kaul in his book Confrontation with Pakistan writes,"Government should by now be aware that in the midst of this grim crisis on 10 September Army Chief Chaudhuri asked Harbaksh Singh whether our forward positions should not be readjusted and established behind the Beas as the enemy Armoured Division might breakthrough. This would have meant pulling back our corps in this area nearly 40 miles from the front line, evacuating vital areas like Ferozepur, Khem Karan, Taran Taran, Khalra, Wagah, Amritsar, and Dear Baba Nanak. Such action was not necessary at that juncture as the battle of Assal Uttar, near Khem Karan, was still being fought and by no means lost and there should have been no cause for panic. Thanks to the leadership and determination of Harbaksh Singh, who resisted the Army Chief's counsel, India was saved from a disastrous situation. The decision of this commander to make a resolute stand at Assal Uttar proved right, as by the 10 evening the Pakistani forces suffered a severe reverse. [P. 38-39] , In this war, Lt. Gen. Harbaksh Singh received no worthwhile directions from Army Headquarters but influenced the battles favourable, wherever possible, by his personal leadership and courage. But for his sound judgement and example might not have achieved even an honourable stalemate."

The historians will evaluate the contribution of the great General, but since the Punjab was the battle field one thing is too sure that but for this action of the general of the Sikh regiment the Punjab and Punjabis would have got an unprecedented blow, the parallel of which is found in the chapters of invaders in the history. Writing about this part of history Sirdar Kapur Singh in Sikhism & Politics published by SGPC says, "In the Indo-Pakistan conflict of 1965, it is now know, that but for the obduracy of a certain Sikh General it had almost been decided to abandon the entire Punjab west of Ambala to the invading Pakistani tanks. Just a week often days of occupation of the Sikh Homeland by the soldiers of Marshal Ayub and not a single Sikh virgin or a single Sikh rupee or a single Sikh sacred spot would have retained its purity or dignity, And the Sikh world its generals, barristers and psychoanalysts notwithstanding would have been enveloped by darkness and decay for fifty years at least if not forever. "

In the interview the General said very emphatically, "I had absolute confidence that I will not allow them to enter Amritsar." The contribution of the General to the nation is so great that certain concerned quarters made specific suggestions to the honour General Harbaksh Singh during the forthcoming tercentenary celebrations of the Khalsa. It is no exaggeration that his contribution for this Nation and especially for the Punjab is no less than that of Banda Bahadur or Hari Singh Nalua, but that was not to be and no body even cared to invite him for the celebrations. This morning when I rang up an Akali activist and told him about the sad demise of the general, the question was, "Who was General Harbaksh Singh?".

Source http://www.sikhlibraryandmuseum.ca/arti ... 0Singh.htm

[Big Daddy]

Oh jees, goodboy_mentor, that was one interesting read. You've introduced many of us to some great history we never knew, especially the ancient battle fields. Thanks a ton! Got me interested to google more.

BD

[goodboy_mentor]

Appreciate your comments, adding link to another post that deals with wars that British had to face on the Indian sub continent and some tid bits of history viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25107&p=248329#p248329

[Alab Arsalan]

goodboy_mentor singh ji, you are good Sikh historian.
but Sikh history is very short to produce Generals like long Islamic history.which has lot of them, like KHLID BIN WALEED who never lost a single battle in his life and Destroyed Persian and Roman Empire.

[Risala]

Without doubt..Field Marshal S.H F J Manekshaw

[goodboy_mentor]

but Sikh history is very short to produce Generals like long Islamic history.which has lot of them, like KHLID BIN WALEED who never lost a single battle in his life and Destroyed Persian and Roman Empire.

Alab Arsalan Shahab, fully agree with you the Sikh history is very short and Islamic history is very long. Of course Khalid Bin Walid was a great General and fought almost hundred battles and lost not a single one. Not only that Islamic civilization has made immense contribution to humanity. Unfortunately, it is not known to many people. At times when it was unimaginable in most parts of the world, it was in Islamic civilization where an Emperor and beggar could sit together and eat together. It was in Islamic civilization where a slave could become an Emperor. Following letter from Caliph Ali to Malik Ashtar illustrates the sense of equality, justice and compassion Islamic rulers had for their subjects -

“Habituate your heart to mercy for the subjects and to affection and kindness for them… since they are of two kinds, either your brother in religion or one like you in creation…So, extend to them your forgiveness and pardon, in the same way as you would like Allah to extend His forgiveness and pardon to you”

— Letter from Caliph Ali to Malik Ashtar, Governor of Egypt. Source UN Declaration done at Beirut on 28-29 March 2017. The document of Declaration is available here http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Press/21 ... ights.docx All these were revolutionary contributions to humanity.

Unfortunately these aspects of Islamic civilization where equality, compassion and justice for humanity was the core foundation have not been highlighted and some vested interests take opportunity to spread negative propaganda and influence.

If you read my previous posts you will find, I am not belittling anyone or making comparisons. I selected Punjab because of it's strategic location that caused to have impact on Northern India and rest of India. And the amount of odds that were present. If you read some other post here viewtopic.php?f=44&t=24982#p247285 and here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25006#p247416 I have been highlighting the ills that were present in the Indian sub continent. Unfortunately some members, in those threads rather than taking positively, needlessly took them as some kind of offense.

Added in 30 minutes 18 seconds:

Without doubt..Field Marshal S.H F J Manekshaw

Of course he was among the most illustrated gentlemen generals, his record in World War II is also exemplary. Nothing negative about him. But regarding his role in 1971 War, I would disagree for the following reasons -

1. he had advantage of numerical superiority

2. he had the advantage to decide when to start the war at suitable time

3. he had the advantage of surrounding, blocking and attacking a comparatively small piece of territory from all three or rather four sides

4. he had the advantage of ongoing insurgency which could attack supply lines, lines of communication and provide real time intelligence information

5. he had the strategic and locational advantage because the main force, command and control of the opponent was in West Pakistan was practically disconnected from theater of war

With so many of these advantages, if a general cannot win, is he worth to be called a general?

Added in 1 hour 39 minutes 40 seconds:
Adding the video of the Battle of Hydaspes(now known as river Jhelum) fought between Alexander, the King of Greece and Porous, the King of Punjab, now divided between Pakistan and India. The video gives an interesting account of the type of strategies and tactics used in the battle.

[Alab Arsalan]

than'ks goodboy_mentor