INSAS rifles to be retired, Indian Army to get foreign alternative

[Woods]

http://www.financialexpress.com/india-n ... ve/575757/

After 20 years, INSAS rifles to be retired, Indian Army to get ‘deadlier’ foreign alternative
After nearly 20 years, indigenous manufactured INSAS rifles will be finally 'retiring' from the army and replaced by an imported assault rifle which will be manufactured in the country later.
By: PTI | New Delhi | Updated: March 5, 2017 5:57 PM

After nearly 20 years, indigenous manufactured INSAS rifles will be finally ‘retiring’ from the army and replaced by an imported assault rifle which will be manufactured in the country later. The Indian Small Arms System (INSAS), which was inducted in the army 1988, is likely to be replaced with deadlier assault rifles of higher caliber (7.62×51), official sources said.

The sources said that as many as 18 vendors, including some Indian companies having a tie-up with a foreign arms manufacturing firm, have sent in their consent to replace nearly two lakh such rifles used by the army along the borders and in counter-insurgency operations.

The reason for phasing out of INSAS, as cited by experts, was that it was not effective at long range and at best, it could only maim the enemy.

The sources said that 7.62×51 assault rifles have already been introduced in the Pakistani army which purchased them from Heckler and Koch, one of the world’s leading small arms manufacturers based in Germany.

The proposal for procuring the new assault rifles was in pre-Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) stage and expected to be completed by the year end after putting the process of purchase of these weapons on a fast track.

[mundaire]

The reason for phasing out of INSAS, as cited by experts, was that it was not effective at long range and at best, it could only maim the enemy.

That's really funny, as IIRC when the INSAS was introduced, one of the reasons touted for the choice of 5.56 cartridge was that it would maim and not kill the enemy. The logic put forward was that this (more wounded) would tie up enemy resources.

Why isn't anyone talking about the REAL REASON, which is piss poor quality of manufacture, the fault of which lies completely with the Indian Ordnance Factory Board (IOFB).

First we spend a ton of money to replace the 7.62x51 SLR rifles with the 5.56 INSAS, and now we are told that we will be spending more money in replacing the 5.56 INSAS with (I'm guessing) the 7.62 once again?!

Also the Heckler & Koch 7.62x51 rifles have been in use with the Pakistani forces for DECADES, introduced by them around the same time/ soon after we introduced the SLR in the same calibre... which was post the 1962 Indo-China war débâcle. Unless I'm mistaken the H&K G3 has been license manufactured by Pakistan Ordnance Factories for many years now.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Vikram]

The reason for phasing out of INSAS, as cited by experts, was that it was not effective at long range and at best, it could only maim the enemy.

That's really funny, as IIRC when the INSAS was introduced, one of the reasons touted for the choice of 5.56 cartridge was that it would maim and not kill the enemy. The logic put forward was that this (more wounded) would tie up enemy resources.

Why isn't anyone talking about the REAL REASON, which is piss poor quality of manufacture, the fault of which lies completely with the Indian Ordnance Factory Board (IOFB).

First we spend a ton of money to replace the 7.62x51 SLR rifles with the 5.56 INSAS, and now we are told that we will be spending more money in replacing the 5.56 INSAS with (I'm guessing) the 7.62 once again?!

Also the Heckler & Koch 7.62x51 rifles have been in use with the Pakistani forces for DECADES, introduced by them around the same time/ soon after we introduced the SLR in the same calibre... which was post the 1962 Indo-China war débâcle. Unless I'm mistaken the H&K G3 has been license manufactured by Pakistan Ordnance Factories for many years now.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

You are right on all counts, Abhijeet. Pakistan had G3 for a long time and produces under licence in Pakistan.

I think, if at all a change is necessary, 6.5 Grendel would make a great choice, preferably on a platform like FN-SCAR. Accurate, lethal, easy on the shoulder and a good compromise between the 5.56 and the 7.62X51.Only issue is that it is not a standard military calibre yet.

Best-
Vikram

[nitroex700]

IMHO a better caliber would be the 300BLK which incurs the least logistical overhead while giving 7.62x39 ballistics in 5.56x45 size cartridge. Can be used in INSAS receiver with only barrel change. Great power on impact, excellent suppression qualities as well.

Another alternative would be the 6.8 SPC but that requires a bigger logistical cost...

[StampMaster]

Introducing new product is all economics. Unless a new product (with upgrade, new features or technology) is made available old product cannot be phased out. And in reality product we already have are more than sufficient to make our lives living hell , WE DO NOT NEED ANY MORE NEW PRODUCTS.


We want this so called upgrade in defense, telecom etc so we can bigger fake economy and GDP numbers and not to forget something in our DNA, SCAMS.

From last 20-30 years, human life purpose has been moved from Spiritual therapy to retail therapy. Now that's an upgrade from being happy, debt-free to selling your soul.

[sa_ali]

All govts do the same, now that govt is coming to the 2nd half, more of such instances will surface as defense is the only sector left to squeeze out. Most of the PSU are already liquidated. Just wait and watch, in name of urgent defense needs we will see deals and more interestingly, we will see local partner, in name of made india used to find another way to get kick backs.

[goodboy_mentor]

It takes twenty years to realize the difference in ballistic capabilities of 5.56 and 7.62 or the poor quality of a gun? Something certainly not right.

and not to forget something in our DNA, SCAMS.

Giving and taking bribes(dakshina) has a solid cultural, social and historical background among the ruling elite of this land. Every big transaction has great probability of having an element of dakshina involved in one way or the other. History of this land and it's ruling elite did not start on 15 August 1947, but thousands of years before, and it is still continuing vigorously by leaps and bounds. The written Constitution, the laws, the political party or parties in power, all may become immaterial when these great matters are involved. To understand all this and understand "the game", requesting every reader of this post to read the book History Of Hindu Imperialism by Swami Dharma Theertha. This book is available for free download on internet in various formats.

[Woods]

To understand all this and understand "the game", requesting every reader of this post to read the book History Of Hindu Imperialism by Swami Dharma Theertha. This book is available for free download on internet in various formats.
.
Other recent and devastating religious imperialism who turned this land into lawless jungle will be talked about with as much honesty, I guess .

[Vikram]

Please do not raise political issues unless pertinent to the present topic.Thank you.

[Woods]

Vikram ji , sorry .
But let me say this much -- I am a Christian . Remember it were English Christians and not Hindus who confiscated guns from us Indians . And it were moslem invaders( utterly guided by religious commands) who dilapidated this country and it's institutions before the advent of English .
There is no Hindu God who doesn't bear arms .
How come this country reduced to a quagmire where even .22 airguns are to be outlawed .
And , lastly , there are some public groups who have shown a definite tendancy towards violence if they get the gun . Consider latest mass-murders in US or worldwide , someone is always the other side ( I am not naming anyone) .
We are to evolve as a civilized society again .
And yes , corruption being so deep rooted , only technology will cure us .

[Vikram]

Woods, this is nothing to do with the soundness of your argument. IFG has a long standing rule of not allowing political posts unless related to RKBA (Right to keep and bear arms). As long as posts stay within that line, all is good.

[Woods]

Some miraculous craftsman are lurking around .
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 500737.cms

Added in 1 minute 9 seconds:
Unfortunately they didnt share the pics

[goodboy_mentor]

But let me say this much -- I am a Christian .

This statement proves nothing because anyone can claim to be following one particular religion and start bashing that or some other religion. Not saying that you are doing it but this is a very common strategy played by vested interests not only online but also publicly.

Remember it were English Christians and not Hindus who confiscated guns from us Indians .

It is easy to blame the British but the casteist ideology has been disarming local population long before British or Arabs came to Indian Sub continent. The core of Hinduism has historically been basically an ideology cum polity to stratify society permanently into four castes by birth/ race, disarm them by preventing them from acquiring knowledge, property and arms, in order to control them from the top by ruling elite of Brahminist handlers. Practically nothing has changed till now rather it is increasing day by day. Had explained this in detail in another thread here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23554&start=15#p232609

Do you still want to blame the British after reading the following? Please note "The Pakistani govt let him walk (or sail rather) out with his guns, the Indian govt stopped him, hence losing our family heirlooms!!!"

For the Brit-bashers, a bit of family history - my Grandfather's guns were not taken away by the Brits, even when his oldest son (my uncle - Tauji) was arrested, tried and convicted for sedition (i.e. fighting for freedom), terrorist acts (looting a army pay truck), and fortunately killing a army employee on duty (the guard of the said pay truck) was not proved, hence he escaped being hanged! These guns were finally confiscated by the Indian govt, when he was crossing the border post Partition. The Pakistani govt let him walk (or sail rather) out with his guns, the Indian govt stopped him, hence losing our family heirlooms!!!

Source http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 15#p157988

And it were moslem invaders( utterly guided by religious commands) who dilapidated this country and it's institutions before the advent of English .

Who were not an "invader" or not "utterly guided by religious commands" except the Adivasis, Dravidians and local people of North Eastern States? Who "dilapidated" this country and it's "institutions" before them is even more important. This is where it is important to read the books like History of Hindu Imperialism by Swami Dharma Theertha because observing and analyzing changes over time is essential to understanding why a contemporary situation(especially related to RKBA) is the way it is. Unless we observe and analyze changes over time, we cannot understand our present without understanding our past. And we cannot fully imagine change without a sense of how the deep rooted core culture especially related to RKBA has changed or not changed over time.

Yes they certainly destroyed the political institutions of the Brahminists to the benefit of the oppressed castes. Who went all the way to the court of Emperor Akbar and met Mahesh Dass(usually called Birbal), lodged a petition to get Darbar Sahib(it's foundation stone was laid by Hazrat Mian Mir, is called Golden Temple by invaders) be fully demolished? Why demolish it? Because as per their ideology, it was an attack on their "religion". Akbar being a wise and just ruler, did not believe Birbal or the petition and personally went there with his entire family to know the matters. He stayed there for number of days. When he found nothing objectionable, he dismissed the petition. Why the school or college text books do not tell these type of facts to the students? Who gets the benefit and who suffers by hiding these type of facts of history? Who is now following the overt or covert strategy of attacking or demolishing places of worship or institutions? Most importantly, who is now "dilapidating" this country and it's "institutions" is the main question?

There is no Hindu God who doesn't bear arms .

Then why there is lack of the honesty to acknowledge this fact? This is where the the books like History of Hindu Imperialism by Swami Dharma Theertha and this link viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23554&start=15#p232609 come handy.

How come this country reduced to a quagmire where even .22 airguns are to be outlawed .

Again this is where the the book History of Hindu Imperialism by Swami Dharma Theertha and this link viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23554&start=15#p232609 come handy. To make the matters easier to understand let me quote something below -

[1:] Assuming that Chaturvarnya is practicable, I contend that it is the most vicious system. That the Brahmins should cultivate knowledge, that the Kshatriya should bear arms, that the Vaishya should trade, and that the Shudra should serve, sounds as though it was a system of division of labour. Whether the theory was intended to state that the Shudra need not, or whether it was intended to lay down that he must not, is an interesting question. The defenders of Chaturvarnya give it the first meaning. They say, why need the Shudra trouble to acquire wealth, when the three [higher] Varnas are there to support him? Why need the Shudra bother to take to education, when there is the Brahmin to whom he can go when the occasion for reading or writing arises? Why need the Shudra worry to arm himself, when there is the Kshatriya to protect him? The theory of Chaturvarnya, understood in this sense, may be said to look upon the Shudra as the ward and the three [higher] Varnas as his guardians. Thus interpreted, it is a simple, elevating, and alluring theory.

[2:] Assuming this to be the correct view of the underlying conception of Chaturvarnya, it seems to me that the system is neither fool-proof nor knave-proof. What is to happen if the Brahmins, Vaishyas, and Kshatriyas fail to pursue knowledge, to engage in economic enterprise, and to be efficient soldiers, which are their respective functions? Contrary-wise, suppose that they discharge their functions, but flout their duty to the Shudra or to one another; what is to happen to the Shudra if the three classes refuse to support him on fair terms, or combine to keep him down? Who is to safeguard the interests of the Shudra—or for that matter, those of the Vaishya and Kshatriya—when the person who is trying to take advantage of his ignorance is the Brahmin? Who is to defend the liberty of the Shudra—and for that matter, of the Brahmin and the Vaishya—when the person who is robbing him of it is the Kshatriya?

[3:] Inter-dependence of one class on another class is inevitable. Even dependence of one class upon another may sometimes become allowable. But why make one person depend upon another in the matter of his vital needs? Education, everyone must have. Means of defence, everyone must have. These are the paramount requirements of every man for his self-preservation. How can the fact that his neighbour is educated and armed help a man who is uneducated and disarmed? The whole theory is absurd. These are the questions which the defenders of Chaturvarnya do not seem to be troubled about. But they are very pertinent questions. Assuming that in their conception of Chaturvarnya the relationship between the different classes is that of ward and guardian, and that this is the real conception underlying Chaturvarnya, it must be admitted that it makes no provision to safeguard the interests of the ward from the misdeeds of the guardian.

[4:] Whether or not the relationship of guardian and ward was the real underlying conception on which Chaturvarnya was based, there is no doubt that in practice the relation was that of master and servants. The three classes, Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas, although not very happy in their mutual relationship, managed to work by compromise. The Brahmin flattered the Kshatriya, and both let the Vaishya live in order to be able to live upon him. But the three agreed to beat down the Shudra. He was not allowed to acquire wealth, lest he should be independent of the three [higher] Varnas. He was prohibited from acquiring knowledge, lest he should keep a steady vigil regarding his interests. He was prohibited from bearing arms, lest he should have the means to rebel against their authority. That this is how the Shudras were treated by the Tryavarnikas is evidenced by the Laws of Manu. There is no code of laws more infamous regarding social rights than the Laws of Manu. Any instance from anywhere of social injustice must pale before it.

[5:] Why have the mass of people tolerated the social evils to which they have been subjected? There have been social revolutions in other countries of the world. Why have there not been social revolutions in India, is a question which has incessantly troubled me. There is only one answer which I can give, and it is that the lower classes of Hindus have been completely disabled for direct action on account of this wretched Caste System. They could not bear arms, and without arms they could not rebel. They were all ploughmen—or rather, condemned to be ploughmen—and they never were allowed to convert their ploughshares into swords. They had no bayonets, and therefore everyone who chose, could and did sit upon them. On account of the Caste System, they could receive no education. They could not think out or know the way to their salvation. They were condemned to be lowly; and not knowing the way of escape, and not having the means of escape, they became reconciled to eternal servitude, which they accepted as their inescapable fate.

[6:] It is true that even in Europe the strong has not shrunk from the exploitation—nay, the spoliation—of the weak. But in Europe, the strong have never contrived to make the weak helpless against exploitation so shamelessly as was the case in India among the Hindus. Social war has been raging between the strong and the weak far more violently in Europe than it has ever been in India. Yet the weak in Europe has had in his freedom of military service, his physical weapon; in suffering, his political weapon; and in education, his moral weapon. These three weapons for emancipation were never withheld by the strong from the weak in Europe. All these weapons were, however, denied to the masses in India by the Caste System.

Source http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt ... on_17.html

And , lastly , there are some public groups who have shown a definite tendancy towards violence if they get the gun . Consider latest mass-murders in US or worldwide , someone is always the other side ( I am not naming anyone) .

What is the point you are trying to convey? Why go so far in some other country where we do not know who these persons are, what is their real motive, whether they are part of false flag operations to confuse and mislead the public. Let us come to the Indian Sub Continent and discuss about how many million unarmed innocents have been mass murdered/ genocided by "some public groups" since transfer of political power by British on August 15, 1947.

We are to evolve as a civilized society again .

We are all civilized except the ruling elite and those who blindly support them and their false flag operations.

And yes , corruption being so deep rooted , only technology will cure us .

Corruption and injustice is not due to lack of technology. Rather the technology in the hands of corrupt will only help them.

Some miraculous craftsman are lurking around .

Real "craftsman" or culprit is the government that does not allow import of firearms and creating an artificially inflated market to make normal humans into criminals. Anyways will the corrupt in the police and judiciary not make lots of money in these type of cases?

[sa_ali]

[nitroex700]

This might help shed some light on the way forward in modern firearms...

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017 ... rsion-kit/