New air rifle suggestion.(help)

[milind]

I have Precihole, IHP and UTA. With the budget you have mentioned you can easily by 2 guns. Go for Nitropiston Precihole (if you opt for precihole) and if you choose to opt other brand then go for SDB Artemis .177 (I am also willing to buy soon). Every airgun lover should have Precihole, IHP and SDB in its collection. Scope is useless until AR is pneumatic.

[sam 47]

Scope is useless until AR is pneumatic.

Why so? There are countless people abroad with springers and scopes. Even in this very forum there are many users with scope. And I am personally doing homework for importing scope.
In fact some of the best spring piston air rifles don't come with open sights as the owners are going to install scope anyway.

[Basu]

As per my opinion , a scope is always relevant , if one wants to hit a very small target , like Re.1 coin , at a distance more than 20 yds.
If one is gifted by 50-60 yds back yard , it is a bliss.
However I prefer open sight while scooting and shooting.

Basu

Note: My 4x32 is detained at Kolkata foreign postal Dept.
Do not see much hope to get it released.

[Big Daddy]

Basu is correct. The opinion that a scope is not needed for springers is bias and not well informed.

The only thing that you have to ensure is that when you get a scope for a springer, it's spring gun rated. You can browse this forum to find more on that.

Unlike other rifles, a springer has a two way movement, back when the spring accelerates and forward when it reaches the port side. This is why scopes that can survive a 12 gauge shotgun can be easily busted by a strong springer (usually called magnum springers)

BD

[vsraja]

To my mind a scope is effective if it has a fixed barrel.And hence the type of powerplant is less relevant.Even a airgun rated scope can give less accuracy in a break barrel rifle.In that situation an open sight on the break barrel is more relevant compared to a scope because of the open sights fixed on the barrel itself.Hence there is always a mismatch of scope with break barrel rifles.If an airgunner doesn't understood this phenomenon will always complain his scope,rifle or the pellets he use.

[TenX]

To my mind a scope is effective if it has a fixed barrel.And hence the type of powerplant is less relevant.Even a airgun rated scope can give less accuracy in a break barrel rifle.In that situation an open sight on the break barrel is more relevant compared to a scope because of the open sights fixed on the barrel itself.Hence there is always a mismatch of scope with break barrel rifles.If an airgunner doesn't understood this phenomenon will always complain his scope,rifle or the pellets he use.

... Absolutely right....
Springers come in break barrel, under barrel and side lever.
For break barrels, scope is nowhere near advisable. For the other two categories, yes.
Matter of fact, rear sight at the real rear of the gun (on top the power plant) is also non existent for break barrels. Although IHP and some variants have come up with a peep-hole fixed to the real rear end of the barrel mechanism, the rear 'V" and fore-sight, BOTH, are always fixed to the barrel part that breaks. This is true for almost all guns, from Weihrauch to IHP.

[sam 47]

I most respectfully disagree. There are lots of people who shoot springers with scopes, and get phenomenal accuracy. Forget scope, even peep sights attached to match grade springers from Diana and Walther which work on same principle of scope , and they shoot tiny groups even after 1000s of shots. What distinct advantage does a fixed barrel offer? Even if your barrel is a dropper, you can use a shim , or drooper mounts to get impact on point of aim. And contrary to popular belief,
the barrel of a springer doesn't bend and move down after a few shots. Does a crow bar become straight after using a few times?

[TenX]

I most respectfully disagree. There are lots of people who shoot springers with scopes, and get phenomenal accuracy. Forget scope, even peep sights attached to match grade springers from Diana and Walther which work on same principle of scope , and they shoot tiny groups even after 1000s of shots. What distinct advantage does a fixed barrel offer? Even if your barrel is a dropper, you can use a shim , or drooper mounts to get impact on point of aim. And contrary to popular belief,
the barrel of a springer doesn't bend and move down after a few shots. Does a crow bar become straight after using a few times?

Dear Sam,
I do agree with you that with required alterations, some do shoot break-barrels with scopes.
And the alignment need not be limited to one plane only.
Matter of fact, and after usage, you can check that some break barrels have a play.
With all this, and is someone needs to shoot with a scope, sure.. go ahead. But as an advise, if a scope must be installed, better not on a break barrel.
And this post is for someone who is buying his first springer, and it is very valid to raise concerns beforehand, unlike for us 'experienced' nuts, who go about playing with stuff

[vsraja]

Already lots of factors affects the accuracy of a springer compared to pcp.Even there is no play in the barrel locking a micro difference is present between every locking and this transfers into some mm difference at the muzzle end.This affects the accuracy at the target at large group and effectively miss the bullseye.You can only understood if you compare your break barrel with a fixed barrel both with a scope.

[sam 47]

Most true, neither PCP nor scope is available in India readily, and hand full of underlevers, so 99% people shoot break barrels with open sights. But from where to where , this thread has gone astray. TenX , I agree it is most unsuitable for a newbie in India to get a scope and mount in a entry level springer. I myself cant get one as i apprehend it will get stuck at kolkata customs. BTW, what do you mean by play in a break barrel?

[milind]

Dear All,
I am happy that all the senior and experienced members are sharing lots of useful information.

With due respect to all experienced members and ready to be corrected, I would like to put my views on what I have said.

Use of scope is to shoot pinpoint target with accuracy which is not visible with naked eye easily. Now if we want to shoot a distant target accurately we should have a capable rifle which shoots with consistent accuracy and a capable scope. Spring-powered air rifles are the hardest guns to shoot accurately (now somebody may object to this also ). Once the trigger is released and the spring propels the piston forward, the rifle shoves back against your shoulder. When the piston stops, its forward motion transfers to the rifle, which then moves forward. This is the jarring motion that turns scopes that are not airgun-rated into castanets. Also, as the spring is uncompressing, a torque is produced which tries to twist the rifle about its longitudinal axis. It’s next to impossible to control these three forces the same way every time and obtain consistency. The pellet will strike the target at a slightly different place than your point of aim.

Another point is mostly all the springers which are mainly Break barrel rifles are inherently vulnerable to barrel misalignment due to their regular action of breaking the barrel when cocking the rifle. This repeated action could lead to slight but significant change in barrel orientation relative to the scope. (if not now it will surely develop on later stage). Thus its very difficult to get the accuracy using the scope over springer (that too with Indian makes).

So only using Air Rifle friendly Scope to get desirable results is always questionable with Springers. Pneumatic (or even sidelever or underlevers) guns have few advantages over spring loaded break barrels. Any experienced person with thorough knowledge can definitely cope up with accuracy but for the beginners and general plinking enthusiast its bit challenge.


Love
Milind

[sam 47]

Does cocking a breakbarrel gun bend the barrel over time?
Posted on April 27, 2005 by B.B. Pelletier ↓ 20 Comments
By B.B. Pelletier

The myth goes like this – “If you cock an airgun by its barrel, surely the barrel will bend over time.” This is an urban legend and is completely false! But, it illustrates that some shooters are thinking about the strength of the barrel, and that can lead to some dangerous “experiments” that could bend a barrel in an instant.

Airgun barrels are strong!
To prove my point about the strength of airgun barrels, consider this. A Haenel barrel on a breakbarrel model made in the 1930s is still straight today after hundreds of thousands of shots and even some accidents over the years. What about a Diana model 65 target rifle used by a shooting club? Still in service after several MILLION shots by hundreds of club members since the gun was new in 1970, the barrel remains straight enough to win an important match. The mainspring may have been replaced 20 times by now and all the bluing has been worn off the barrel at the front sight where hands have grabbed to cock over the years, but the barrel is still as straight as the day it left the factory. Breakbarrels don’t bend with normal usage.

It’s EASY to bend a breakbarrel simply by mistreating it!
By deliberately mistreating an airgun, the barrel can be bent in an instant. What some “curious” owners do is break open the barrel, then fire the gun with the barrel broken fully open to see how fast the mainspring can close the barrel. Sounds like great fun, huh?

When the barrel closes with the force of more than 100 lbs. of spring behind it, the end of the barrel where the front sight it mounted wants to continue moving long after the breech slams into its locked position. The result is an upward bend in the barrel at the point where the barrel passes through the breechblock. You can achieve the same effect by running rapidly through a narrow doorway holding a stepladder sideways. The Three Stooges demonstrated that numerous times. Judging from what I see on America’s Funniest Home Videos, there are still some idiots dumb enough to try it today!

Shooting with the barrel broken open is DANGEROUS!
A rapidly closing barrel will cut off fingers! People have been hit in the forehead by front sights when the rifle wrenches out of their grasp from closing rapidly. And half the time the stock splinters, in addition to bending the barrel. Stocks cost nearly half the price of the entire gun, so there are several good reasons to NOT TRY this DANGEROUS experiment.

The barrel-bending myth helps sales of sidelevers and underlevers
There is nothing wrong with either a sidelever or an underlever cocking mechanism, as long as you understand that both add weight to the gun. The breakbarrel will always be the most efficient design from a weight standpoint. Some people just will not accept that an airgun barrel can be strong enough to cock a gun millions of times without bending. I wonder how many bottle openers these people wear out in their lifetimes? Or crowbars? Or shovels?



The powerful Webley Patriot is a breakbarrel with
no barrel-bending problems, despite a heavy mainspring!
Exhibit A – The Webley Patriot Export
The Webley Patriot Export breakbarrel is one of the most powerful spring rifles in existence, and it uses the barrel to cock the gun! A force of approximately 50 lbs. is required each and every time the rifle is cocked; yet, the Patriot barrel remains rifle-straight indefinitely. Why? Because they made it that way.

Breakbarrel rifles don’t bend their barrels over time. As long as you use them as intended, they will last for centuries.



This is what Mr. Gaylord has to say about barrel disorientation in break barrels.
Yes the pellet will strike at different points but the points will be so close that it will be covered by a one rupee coin.
Just watch the video of the Berman r9 and Walther's new break barrel test on you tube, you will see. I wonder if a air rifle is accurate at the first place, why the addition of scope will make it inaccurate? It will still group as well and even better, just not at the point of aim.
And if does not strike aim point even after best adjustments, it suggests the ' particular' scope you have is either in compatible or hopeless. There are 1000s of different scopes to choose from and doing the required homework before buying helps to buy the right one, just like the AR at the first place
.

The pellet will strike the target at a slightly different place than your point of aim.

Dr. F. W. Mann spent 37 years of his life and no small fortune to see why projectiles didn't strike the point of aim every time. He got no conclusive hypothesis, but since then it has been considered a fact that bullets or pellets can never go to the same place every time, so group measurements are used to determine accuracy.

The air rifle " friendly " scope was designed specifically keeping springers, magnum springers in mind. Most magnums are break barrels, like HW 80, HW 90, Diana 350 and theoben eliminator except like Diana 460 and Diana 54/48 being the well known fixed barrel magnums
. Most of them will put 5 pellets at .35-5 inches at 30 yards ( with scope).