Where will all the stashed black money go?

[nagarifle]

so in other words its a case of dig a hole to fill a hole or is a case of taking water from one end of a pound to fill the pound at the other end? sounds like.

[TenX]

Great points from all! Thanks

A few more simple truths to add....
1. Govt. Employees are now taking bribe, adding a 30%, as cheque, along with a 'thank you' note, mentioning returning of a hand load taken from the employee. These cheques are in different names of family persons. My own uncle had to give this 4 days back to clear his pension file!
2. Not targeting and politician or party, and assuming that Modi is completely against corruption, will it be his prerogative to assess every individual's file whose transaction crosses 2.5L, or who hold 2 properties, etc? NO. It will eventually be another Babu, who was 'shiffarrish'ed by a neta, who have Vitamin BM oozing thru their veins. They will always find a way. (Many already have)
3. There are several possibilities as to why this turmoil, including (a) Modi realizing the many corrupt netas in his own band-wagon, and thus trying a scheme to burn black money, without indulging names (b) shake the secondary monetary backbone of India - the hawala (c) Pump people's money into banks, to empower better monetary gains for them (d) promise of a future without corruption, because all transactions will be tracked (which, by the way, is impossible!) (e) Sacrifice and long queues by the common man will bring the rich man to the road .. and many more. Now, although our hearts go out with a WANT to accept and embrace these 'assumptions' as truth, we have to think from our mind as what is pragmatic and 'on-ground'. Truth is that most of the above-middle class, salaried types are mostly not affected. But fact is that the trade circle, small vendors, day-to-day earners, who all comprise the major faction of India's number (by people count) are badly hit... and yet many will take it in their stride, citing the Army and Patriotism ways. This is so similar to the rally of second cheek-showers, during the British rule! IS this some sort of mass-training for people with lesser awareness, to limit their expectations in life (... and from the government!)
4. More rules and stress on the branches will not cure the tree. The problem is deeply rooted, and generating a culture of walking the straight path, without using names and position, is the 'RamRajya' that we all want. And to truly achieve this, Modi has to first create several Modis running every department, supervising every action, to really ensure that the Macro-Ambition is driven to Micro levels. Call me a negative person or whatever, but a Nation-wide change by mere currency impetus, with whatever proposed changes, seems too far fetched when we have not yet learnt to break barriers of religion, state and language!

[kanwar76]

No business man worth his salt keeps too much cash at home. Its always rotating at 2%-4% per month. Its those babu's who don't know how to rotate the money will be loosing their stash so be ready they are going to strike back and strike back hard to replenish their lost "Black Money". One of the most corrupt department in this country is IT department. Now they have mandate to go after people which they "suspect" so be ready my countrymen. White,grey or black whatver hue you are of you are a Target now

[PRITAM PATEL]

No business man worth his salt keeps too much cash at home. Its always rotating at 2%-4% per month. Its those babu's who don't know how to rotate the money will be loosing their stash so be ready they are going to strike back and strike back hard to replenish their lost "Black Money".

One of the most corrupt department in this country is IT department. Now they have mandate to go after people which they "suspect" so be ready my countrymen. White,grey or black whatever hue you are of you are a Target now

1. Babus are asking, original rate + 30% if you insist on giving 500/1000 notes. or pay in small denominations....( recent personal experience )

2. now Mr. PM has empowered/boosted up Dacoits to find,frame guilty and prosecute pickpockets.( over 125000 retiered I-Tax personals been recruited back my ministry, child can guess whaat they will do.....)

once I mentioned back on some topic, there are only Two type of people in India, (A) Elites & (B) rest, who serves Elites

regards

[nagarifle]

may JFK rest in peace

[goodboy_mentor]

This move is like edict of Mao to kill all the sparrows because they were perceived to be eating the grains of farmers. It was hailed as a great move. When all sparrows were killed, there was no one to eat the locusts. Their population multiplied uncontrolled and destroyed the crops. There was famine and around 45 million deaths due to starvation in the following three years. Mao exhorted the population to bear with minor inconvenience for some chimerical greater good. No one could dare say Mao to step down and face the law. The population was already brainwashed and disarmed for their "greater good".

[kshitij]

We have fantastically digressed from the original posters question about where will the black money go and rather taken this thread as a platform to criticise the move itself
Wonder how much or if anything at all shared here is actually based on any fact. Most of it seems to be like peoples own (possibly biased and baseless) personal perspective or something even worse like rumour or fear mongering.
But what the hell, we are still a free country so people can go around telling/claiming whatever they want no matter how imaginary or far from the fact it may be.

[kanwar76]

But what the hell, we are still a free country so people can go around telling/claiming whatever they want no matter how imaginary or far from the fact it may be.

And thank god for that and I hope it stays that way

[nagarifle]

no smoke without fire

[goodboy_mentor]

We have fantastically digressed from the original posters question about where will the black money go and rather taken this thread as a platform to criticise the move itself

Like most people the original poster was under the impression black money will go were it is being officially claimed. The entire discussion is how such a thing is not going to happen and how such a claim is misleading.

Wonder how much or if anything at all shared here is actually based on any fact. Most of it seems to be like peoples own (possibly biased and baseless) personal perspective or something even worse like rumour or fear mongering.

Yes the opinions might be biased or baseless, it is a possibility. Similarly the decision of demonetization being based on biased or baseless opinions of some persons is also a possibility. Why not discuss that possibility? But the CAG reports, massive amount of loans being written off, around 86% of the currency being demonetized, the corrupt officials indulging in extortion and bribery, the government and the banks failing to honor the trust of account holders by rationing the cash that rightfully belongs to them are an open fact. Where is the fiction in all this?

But what the hell, we are still a free country so people can go around telling/claiming whatever they want no matter how imaginary or far from the fact it may be.

The very purpose of creating a constitutional democratic republic is to protect freedom and liberties that includes to imagine and express those imaginations and engage in debate and discussions. I am at a loss of words to describe the situation when we stop doing this as people.

I leave it to the readers to decide if the former Depeuty Governor of Reserve bank of India is speaking facts or fiction -

Former RBI deputy governor KC Chakrabarty has come down heavily on the demonetisation exercise , adding it will lead to chaos in the next six months unless there is efficient replacement of currency notes. The outspoken former banker recently spoke to HT on the issue. Excerpts.

Can demonetisation curb black money?

Currency to the tune of Rs 17 lakh crore is not black. If it goes into the hands of people who don’t pay taxes, it becomes black. If a taxpayer gets the money, it turns white. What we are killing is the note. We are not catching people who have not paid taxes. For that you have the I-T department, but they are not doing their duty. The poor hoard cash. The rich, who don’t pay taxes, don’t keep the black money under their pillows.

How much black money do you think is in cash?

Nobody has a clear estimate. Suppose there is 20% black money in the economy and of the total money supply, currency is only 10%, this means that 10% is black money. I feel that the rich move black money very fast as there are leakages. The process through which money becomes black is not tackled. We are not identifying those who don’t pay taxes. By banning notes, you are only increasing costs and taking away the right of the common man.

How can this be managed better?

If your enforcement department, I-T department is weak, it cannot be managed. It is an administrative issue. You think income tax officials don’t know who hold black money? Next six months will be chaotic. It depends on how efficiently you bring back the new currency. If there is enough cash, why is there a restriction on withdrawals?

You said the issue was raised in the UPA regime and you refused?

Yes. We thought it should not be done. That’s it.

How much black money is there in real estate?

People say that 20% of the economy is black money. In that case, black money constitutes 20% of all sectors. Its share is even higher in gold (40%) and real estate. But even the poor purchase gold.

What can be the negative impact?

The economy will suffer because liquidity has been sucked out. You have stopped market transactions for 70% of the economy. The issue is that even black money holders will not spend. The poor will suffer more. Already, we can see that farmers and small businesses are hit.

But banks are now flush with cash ...

That (Rs 500 and Rs 1,000 notes) is ultimately scrap paper now. The RBI will take six months to replace these and banks will have to pay 4% interest on those deposits. Only some time later, banks will be able to lend. There is no credit demand from the rich.

What about NPAs?

The NPA situation is very bad. All efforts should be made to identify the NPAs. If a person is sick, the person is not the problem. The problem with the NPA is the equity. Here no industrialist is doing business with his own money. It requires a surgical operation and we are administering small doses of tonic.

Will S4A (Scheme for Sustainable Structuring of Stressed Assets) help?

It is bogus. The medicine is being given so that the person is not declared sick. The fellow who is sick needs more medicines. I (as a bank) am constantly trying to avoid the classification of NPAs. There is nothing sustainable and unsustainable. A person cannot be half sick. This is manipulation.

First, all NPAs should be identified. They are still hiding it. The RBI has said restructured debt will be NPA. When unsustainable debt gets converted into equity, it is the restructuring of an asset, which means it’s an NPA. Problems are just being postponed. They will resurface after two years.

How many NPAs do you think are still hidden?

More than Rs 4 lakh crore has been written off. NPAs are worth Rs 5 lakh crore, another Rs 2 lakh crore would be restructured and we still don’t know what is sustainable and unsustainable. So if we include everything, it would be around 20%. Why don’t banks declare everything, why hide it?

We saw that the SBI wrote off some loans recently. Do you think these loans have been recovered?

If a bank thinks it can recover the money, why write it off. These write-offs are the biggest scandal of the century. All banks must declare in public whose loans have been written off. These technical write-offs must be stopped immediately.

But banks say that entire provisions have been made and loans are being removed for accounting

You are an NPA, you are not ashamed of that, but showing it to other people is bad? If the economy improves, we will be better off, but banks need to perform.

Source http://www.hindustantimes.com/business- ... flERK.html

[airgun_novice]

Dear goodboy_mentor/ hvj1 et al,

Looks like this time I need to put disclaimers atop my response and views.

1. First and foremost let me make one thing very clear at the outset - I do tolerate and accept and respect difference in opinion, but not dissension against the Republic of India.
2. My views on NPA were put with common man perspective and general perception created by some writers who publish online and masquerade as economists. I do not intend it to be a banking primer or a 3-credit course Banking 101.
3. I have never said anything contrary to the fact that inflation erodes the value (worth) of holdings in currency. That is the very definition/ property of inflation.
4. In my hypothetical case when hvj1 transferred his holdings and self overseas, current PM had not issued ban on 500/ 1000 - notes.
5. I shall restrict myself again to discussion/ rebuttals on points in my original article (story) from perspective of its words and spirit though I shall assume that our highly esteemed contributor, goodboy_mentor expressed his views in honest fairness but without substantial in-depth knowledge of and its application in banking sector and system.

(I) FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING has nothing to do with my hypothetical story. I have kept it very simple from general readership perspective. If FRB is applied the banks can give hvj1's recovery of INR 1000 crores to 1000 other industrialists and not to just 10 as I simply put. That is a legal basis (call it games if you must) on which the banks operate. If at all anything it will actually accelerate the economy. But to avoid over-steaming of the economy RBI has tools in its kitty termed SLR, CSR, REPO and REVERSE REPO to stem in inflation. Money inside vaults of banks and RBI does not lead to inflation but money floating outside in the system (society), including therefore black money and counterfeit money definitely does. So even if hvj1 in ur story were to return the money after AGN Bank requested RBI to print more 1000 Crores, there would not be 2000 crores freely floating around as RBI will suck the excess out of the System. This is exactly where RBI through its MONETARY policy check GOI's FISCAL policy and in general oils the wheels of GDP.

I wrote what I did, not to hide but to guide.

End of the day the "note" is nothing more than a promissory note given by the Governor of RBI (under the RBI Act and Coinage Act and Negotiable Instruments Act as applied concurrently and con-temporarily) but distinct in that any other promissory note is not equivalent of currency though it is a legal tender. Of course in case anyone noticed Re. 1 currency note is signed by Secretary, Ministry of Finance and not the Governor of RBI. REASON ? Money as currency is GOI property though "money" (wealth) is yours. I have therefore cited why an Indian can not burn what he perceives as his own money (in terms of currency). GOI defines the currency hence the RUPEE note is sole jurisdiction of GOI - the rest minted by RBI i.e. they are nothing but multiples of that definition. To my knowledge Australia and Singapore have similar rule due to government ownership of currency notes.

Much contrary to what anyone would have you (general readership) believe, RBI does not happily mint or print at the whim and fancy of its Governor or the PM. It has set procedures based on all the Acts above and International obligations/ relationships. RBI enforces upon itself gold/ forex/ bonds standards while printing currency notes and that is the sole reason why our currency is somewhat stable (unlike Marks during Hitler's rule or Shekels till abut three decades back when these Nations printed their currency without alternate standards for backup. US had gold standard till Nixon abolished it in 1970s but then the USD is the backbone of global economy and many international trades are solely settled in it e.g. global petroleum exchange. So they are happy to print more of it and bomb Saddam Hussain out when he threatened to shift to Euros.) Now during the previous government, a certain Agricultural Minister declared that he forgives INR 70,000 crores of farmers' debt. Now remember that this debt was floating in the System, i.e. Society. So even though this declaration benefited his family and crooks in sugar sector, the common ordinary farmer didn't get zilch as this loan did not cover the "sahukar" system but only banks and certain credit co-operatives which were solely under his domain. But this announcement did cause upheaval in the agricultural sector and inflation in produce market as it was thought that 70000 crores would now be freely floating. Its ramifications were felt especially on the sugarcane, sugar, dal and onion market for years later. And farmers... poor souls continue to commit suicide. Now compare this with the example I cited.

RBI can print more money or withdraw WITHOUT affecting the masses. What happens to the defaced, worn out, torn notes ? They are withdrawn out of circulation, shredded, converted into small "bullets" and incinerated. ONLY RBI has this right. RBI can print as many or a bit more without collateral. This will not affect the System and the Common people in any way.

A slight clarification on goodboy_mentor's possession of my check. Till it is settled and monies transferred to goodboy_mentor's possession, I am still owner of the promise made and contracted as it is a promissory note made by me. The moment I am relieved legally of that ownership by goodboy_mentor I am released from the contract and thus exempted from actually transferring my monies to his ownership after getting possession of his goods or services. Want it to work that way ?

Clarification on "writing off" NPA. When AGN Bank writes of hvj1's loans it is not forgiving or gifting it to him. It's merely transferring from one column of one table to another column of another table in its books. AGN Bank has not declared hvj1's loans as "beyond recovery" or dead loss.

GOSH ! Hope all this discussion is not OT.

II. If the GOI wants nothing can go out of the country. Aren't we still in democracy with the right to expression difference of opinion (without disappearing or losing our Civil Rights in general ?) Understand this there are THREE cases where GOI can declare a state of Emergency on any ONE - External Aggression (War), Financial Crisis (Instability) and Armed Rebellion in part or portion of India. DO THE PRESENT SCENARIO INCLUDE ANY OR ALL OF THESE ? YES !!! ALL OF THE ABOVE. It is to PM NDM's credit that he has not sought to declare Emergency under any ground. Controversial past ? Which PM was not tainted with controversy ? He has at least been exonerated by independent judiciary inquiry. Loopholes ? Want democracy - you get good things and bad.

III. Comparing Maratha Empire is pretty much within context of the statement. Unlike other kingdoms, Shivaji started Hindawi Swaraj as "rayateche rajya" - Country of the People. That is why he did not crown himself as the king immediately. Hindawi Swaraj was a "Nation" - not a fiefdom when it started. Even after Shivaji Maharaj became the Chhatrapati - the power was not shared officially with the Queen nor was there any "Yuvraj". The State Seal was kept with his Mother who was thus the overseer or *like* the Constitutional Head. Facing certain death Shivaji appointed his faithful soldier, Netaji Palkar, as his successor should he die and not hsi son or scion. The attitude of the Maratha Empire started changing post his death and saw rapid decline. The Maharashtra society of today is a long call from the days of Huen Tsang or British/ Portuguese who admitted and admired "the people of Maharashtra for being sole Indians having a sense of Nation". The simile is very apt. The so-called common man of India has a lot to do with the state of affairs of black money and thus can not escape the Wheel of karma as Bhagwad Gita so nicely describes. The intellectuals are equally to blame. So either they are inadequate and hence should not mislead or deliberately fanning emotions and attempting to cause dissension.

Guess I have put on a few more notes of Rs. 500 from my side. Nothing more to add from my side. Once more, I thank all for their patience and exchange of views and sharing of opinion.

regs
A.

PS: Putting this out as separate message rather than interspersing to the previous so as to avoid increasing the length unnecessarily.

Added in 6 minutes 7 seconds:

No business man worth his salt keeps too much cash at home. Its always rotating at 2%-4% per month. Its those babu's who don't know how to rotate the money will be loosing their stash so be ready they are going to strike back and strike back hard to replenish their lost "Black Money".

One of the most corrupt department in this country is IT department. Now they have mandate to go after people which they "suspect" so be ready my countrymen. White,grey or black whatever hue you are of you are a Target now

1. Babus are asking, original rate + 30% if you insist on giving 500/1000 notes. or pay in small denominations....( recent personal experience )

2. now Mr. PM has empowered/boosted up Dacoits to find,frame guilty and prosecute pickpockets.( over 125000 retiered I-Tax personals been recruited back my ministry, child can guess whaat they will do.....)

once I mentioned back on some topic, there are only Two type of people in India, (A) Elites & (B) rest, who serves Elites

regards

1. Why do people hold out on paying their taxes to the government though they stash up 500/1000 currency notes ? MH state has just about recovered taxes of upwards of Rs. 900 crores since Nov 9th. Suddenly lots of people discovered that after a long period of not having money or let the notices come period they actually have money to pay their taxes ?

2. Taxes can be paid online and in banks - so why pay directly to IT babus unless some sort of "settlement" is expected ?

3. The outrage is for what - old pickpockets supposedly turning into new dacoits or older dacoits unable to ply their trade or sit on privileges expressed in 500/1000 notes as they did earlier ?

regs
A.

Added in 1 minute 5 seconds:

But what the hell, we are still a free country so people can go around telling/claiming whatever they want no matter how imaginary or far from the fact it may be.

And thank god for that and I hope it stays that way

Cheers to that bro - these are indeed trying times

regs
A.

Added in 3 minutes 19 seconds:

so in other words its a case of dig a hole to fill a hole or is a case of taking water from one end of a pound to fill the pound at the other end? sounds like.

Couldn't have expressed more beautifully, nagarifle - stop gap measures are usually like that or "Newtonian" (he did carve out a smaller hole in his study door for the kitten when mama cat had already a larger hold cut out previously. ... Hope resources are optimised and not wasted on duplication of efforts. We have lost out on decades of progress and development and now with globalisation many countries look up to India for their progress too.

regs
A.

Added in 15 minutes 38 seconds:

i am not an economist to have point of view on all this but i know 1 thing i have already spent 10 hrs on 3 different occasions to withdraw basic money for house hold and deposit once.
When i went to deposit, I my self saw bora full of 500 and 1000 being handed over to cashier by Branch manager to process and they were getting processed as split amt of 49K. While the richie rich guy sat in the branch manager cubicle, tax payer like me stood in line for 3 hrs to deposit money and 90% of the people in line where daily wagers and lower income group folks. It is causing problem to 80% ppl and targetted 20% is working through back doors to work around it. One of the biggest source of corruption is the IT dept, all this will make their earning swell, they were already njoin good earning. What is being done to ensure that IT dept doesnt trouble tax payers and they dont pocket the money behind all this crack down, I am not sure what is being done on that front.

Dear sa-ali,

A matter of concern indeed !

1. Did you record the proceeding on your mobile cam and report to the right authorities ?
2. If not did you lodge a complaint citing the bank branch, manager's name, date and time of the incident ? Surely there are cameras in the bank. At least one is focused on manager's office/ cabin and a few on tellers ? So your story can be corroborated unless evidence gets tampered with nd it will thus be caught.
3. If scared of authorities, you could always write directly to the PM at pmindia or mygov. I have resorted to this route myself and seen results.
4. Corruption is an inherent issue and problem in India and independent of demonetisation.

Now let us see what all goes on in an account's transaction. It is simply not a case of opening a box and depositing or removing money. Nopes. That is what you think you see in "front" office. But what goes on in the"mid" office and "back" office are a series of database transactions - each with a timestamp (date and time). The properties are set at the DB level and manager/ clerk/ teller/ maintenance/ DB Admin can not tamper at will. Even if records are deleted there will be a timestamp (when addition/ deletion done) attached to the user (i.e. teller or manager as case be). Moreover there will some triggers and rollbacks if illegal transactions are attempted. User clearance are granted at different levels and no manager is given the Admin/ root level clearance.

So if some nut of a manager wants to populate some Jan Dhan accounts with the hope of transfer/ withdrawal later and some teller assists him, they are all caught and easily charged with criminal conspiracy, fraud, IT fraud etc. I am not aware of how many types of crimes or their IPC Code. They are then done for. Days of such "Prem Chopdas" writing and substituting such "chopdas are gone in big banks at least.

Let us all stay aware like you, bro, and build our Nation into a stronger and globally financially viable entity.

regs
A.

[goodboy_mentor]

1. First and foremost let me make one thing very clear at the outset - I do tolerate and accept and respect difference in opinion, but not dissension against the Republic of India.

It would be better if you clarify what is your understanding about dissension against republic of india?

4. In my hypothetical case when hvj1 transferred his holdings and self overseas, current PM had not issued ban on 500/ 1000 - notes.

Denomination of notes is immaterial. There is no doubt he was able to transfer the wealth and cause loss to the account holders. How that loss was made good by AGN Bank? It is either beg, borrow or steal. Is there any other way?

(I) FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING has nothing to do with my hypothetical story. I have kept it very simple from general readership perspective. If FRB is applied the banks can give hvj1's recovery of INR 1000 crores to 1000 other industrialists and not to just 10 as I simply put. That is a legal basis (call it games if you must) on which the banks operate. If at all anything it will actually accelerate the economy. But to avoid over-steaming of the economy RBI has tools in its kitty termed SLR, CSR, REPO and REVERSE REPO to stem in inflation. Money inside vaults of banks and RBI does not lead to inflation but money floating outside in the system (society), including therefore black money and counterfeit money definitely does. So even if hvj1 in ur story were to return the money after AGN Bank requested RBI to print more 1000 Crores, there would not be 2000 crores freely floating around as RBI will suck the excess out of the System. This is exactly where RBI through its MONETARY policy check GOI's FISCAL policy and in general oils the wheels of GDP.

Every bank around the world using fractional reserve banking plays games behind the scene remaining within the "law" and checks and balances like slr, csr etc. Only suddenly when one fine morning the bank run happens and the account holders realize. RBI must be taking some extra ordinary measures to prevent inflation like printing Rs. 2000 notes.

Money inside the vaults of RBI or Banks certainly do not cause inflation just as money inside your vault also does not cause inflation. The problem begins when the vault is opened. Surely RBI or any person does not keep the vaults locked forever. RBI seems to be opening the vaults containing Rs. 2000 notes and already has a mandate to print up to Rs.10,000 denomination notes to contain inflation and protect the value of common man's currency.

As per media reports Chief Ministers of two States had visited the office of RBI to know how much currency RBI has, how much is needed for circulation and they were told they do not have current data and have only last years data. What kind of impression this creates?

End of the day the "note" is nothing more than a promissory note given by the Governor of RBI (under the RBI Act and Coinage Act and Negotiable Instruments Act as applied concurrently and con-temporarily) but distinct in that any other promissory note is not equivalent of currency though it is a legal tender. Of course in case anyone noticed Re. 1 currency note is signed by Secretary, Ministry of Finance and not the Governor of RBI. REASON ? Money as currency is GOI property though "money" (wealth) is yours. I have therefore cited why an Indian can not burn what he perceives as his own money (in terms of currency). GOI defines the currency hence the RUPEE note is sole jurisdiction of GOI - the rest minted by RBI i.e. they are nothing but multiples of that definition. To my knowledge Australia and Singapore have similar rule due to government ownership of currency notes.

Signing by Secretary Ministry of Finance or RBi Governor does not make any legal difference to the guarantee by GOI. This guarantee is flowing from Article 21 into the Acts of Parliament. Practical question to common man is what the real worth of these guarantees when he demands he cannot receive the amount that belongs to him? As told earlier GOI is just a trustee of the wealth as well as currency to represent that wealth for purpose of legal tender. Even for the limited scope of this discussion if one agrees that the currency notes are "property" of GOI, it does not mean the common man cannot receive his wealth that is being represented by currency notes. But practically this is what is happening. When you go to the bank, it is literally saying **** of with the written guarantee on these notes, take x amount today, get branded on your finger with indelible ink and get lost. Even if you deposit the money in your account you cannot withdraw the entire cash. What is this? Where is the guarantee?

Much contrary to what anyone would have you (general readership) believe, RBI does not happily mint or print at the whim and fancy of its Governor or the PM. It has set procedures based on all the Acts above and International obligations/ relationships. RBI enforces upon itself gold/ forex/ bonds standards while printing currency notes and that is the sole reason why our currency is somewhat stable (unlike Marks during Hitler's rule or Shekels till abut three decades back when these Nations printed their currency without alternate standards for backup. US had gold standard till Nixon abolished it in 1970s but then the USD is the backbone of global economy and many international trades are solely settled in it e.g. global petroleum exchange. So they are happy to print more of it and bomb Saddam Hussain out when he threatened to shift to Euros.) Now during the previous government, a certain Agricultural Minister declared that he forgives INR 70,000 crores of farmers' debt. Now remember that this debt was floating in the System, i.e. Society. So even though this declaration benefited his family and crooks in sugar sector, the common ordinary farmer didn't get zilch as this loan did not cover the "sahukar" system but only banks and certain credit co-operatives which were solely under his domain. But this announcement did cause upheaval in the agricultural sector and inflation in produce market as it was thought that 70000 crores would now be freely floating. Its ramifications were felt especially on the sugarcane, sugar, dal and onion market for years later. And farmers... poor souls continue to commit suicide. Now compare this with the example I cited.

As already mentioned every bank and governments around the world have similar procedures but still we have bank runs. RBI must be having some very extra ordinary measures in place.

RBI can print more money or withdraw WITHOUT affecting the masses. What happens to the defaced, worn out, torn notes ? They are withdrawn out of circulation, shredded, converted into small "bullets" and incinerated. ONLY RBI has this right. RBI can print as many or a bit more without collateral. This will not affect the System and the Common people in any way.

Money cannot be printed. Currency notes can be printed. They have practically no intrinsic worth. The value depends on the worth of promise on the notes. The value of promise solely depends on the credibility or worth of the promise of the government in question. It depends on how much collateral the government has to back the promise on the notes. If RBI prints notes without collateral those notes are just worthless pieces of paper. Saying that it will not affect the system is incorrect.

A slight clarification on goodboy_mentor's possession of my check. Till it is settled and monies transferred to goodboy_mentor's possession, I am still owner of the promise made and contracted as it is a promissory note made by me. The moment I am relieved legally of that ownership by goodboy_mentor I am released from the contract and thus exempted from actually transferring my monies to his ownership after getting possession of his goods or services. Want it to work that way ?

If you are holding the title of ownership of the cheque then you must be able to claim it back as your own. The fact is you cannot claim it back once you have handed it's possession over to me. The fact is since I am in the lawful possession of the cheque, it belongs to me. Possession is nine tenths of law.

Clarification on "writing off" NPA. When AGN Bank writes of hvj1's loans it is not forgiving or gifting it to him. It's merely transferring from one column of one table to another column of another table in its books. AGN Bank has not declared hvj1's loans as "beyond recovery" or dead loss.

The readers will have to decide if they want to believe AGN or the former deputy Governor of RBI who says that this is the largest scandal of the century.

II. If the GOI wants nothing can go out of the country. Aren't we still in democracy with the right to expression difference of opinion (without disappearing or losing our Civil Rights in general ?) Understand this there are THREE cases where GOI can declare a state of Emergency on any ONE - External Aggression (War), Financial Crisis (Instability) and Armed Rebellion in part or portion of India. DO THE PRESENT SCENARIO INCLUDE ANY OR ALL OF THESE ? YES !!! ALL OF THE ABOVE. It is to PM NDM's credit that he has not sought to declare Emergency under any ground. Controversial past ? Which PM was not tainted with controversy ? He has at least been exonerated by independent judiciary inquiry. Loopholes ? Want democracy - you get good things and bad.

If all these three conditions required for imposing emergency to save the State are indeed true and still the office of Hon'ble PM is not doing his Constitutional duty of imposing emergency, what does it mean?

Controversy is a very serious one. For whatever reasons, it is indisputable that he failed to do his Constitutional duty as Chief Minister to prevent or stop the Genocide in progress for three days. What makes one believe that he will not fail in doing his Constitutional duty as a Prime Minister?

"Independent judiciary" was unable to take sou motto cognizance of genocides in progress in the capitol city of India in 1984 and again in Gujrat in 2002-3. Why?

III. Comparing Maratha Empire is pretty much within context of the statement. Unlike other kingdoms, Shivaji started Hindawi Swaraj as "rayateche rajya" - Country of the People. That is why he did not crown himself as the king immediately. Hindawi Swaraj was a "Nation" - not a fiefdom when it started. Even after Shivaji Maharaj became the Chhatrapati - the power was not shared officially with the Queen nor was there any "Yuvraj". The State Seal was kept with his Mother who was thus the overseer or *like* the Constitutional Head. Facing certain death Shivaji appointed his faithful soldier, Netaji Palkar, as his successor should he die and not hsi son or scion. The attitude of the Maratha Empire started changing post his death and saw rapid decline. The Maharashtra society of today is a long call from the days of Huen Tsang or British/ Portuguese who admitted and admired "the people of Maharashtra for being sole Indians having a sense of Nation". The simile is very apt. The so-called common man of India has a lot to do with the state of affairs of black money and thus can not escape the Wheel of karma as Bhagwad Gita so nicely describes. The intellectuals are equally to blame. So either they are inadequate and hence should not mislead or deliberately fanning emotions and attempting to cause dissension.

Well despite your attempted justification the explanation is not convincing. You are comparing totally unrelated things. Maratha Empire was an "Empire". If you are saying the Indian State is an "Indian Empire" or "Hindu Empire" then I may agree somewhat with reservations. But if you are claiming it is secular, democratic, socialist republic as stated by the the preamble of the constitution, then it is difficult to agree unless one is being dishonest with the facts.

I do not know what the Huen Tsang or British/ Portuguese said or like to comment about it, but history tells me that Marathas committed unspeakable atrocities like loot, murder and rapes with the Bengalee people. The terrorized Bengalees fled from the western side of river Ganges and settled on the eastern side. The terrorized Bengalees flocked to present day Kolkata area that was controlled by East India Company for protection. A long ditch was constructed around the settlement called Maratha ditch. Parts of that ditch are still there in Kolkata in Northern and Southern Kolkata and parts of it were converted into lower and upper circular roads.

For similar reasons the Jats of present day Haryana did not come to help the Marathas during Third Battle of Panipat. The reasons are not much different from those found in Bengal. Similarly for similar reasons the Sikhs were also not much interested to fight against Ahmad Shah Abdali in Third Battle of Panipat.

All this clearly shows that the idea of Nation was limited to Maratha Nation, every one else were "others".

3. The outrage is for what - old pickpockets supposedly turning into new dacoits or older dacoits unable to ply their trade or sit on privileges expressed in 500/1000 notes as they did earlier ?

Outrage is about when you go to the bank, it is literally saying **** of with the written guarantee on these notes, take x amount today, get branded on your finger with indelible ink and get lost. Even if you deposit the money in your account you cannot withdraw the entire cash. What is this? Where is the guarantee that is flowing from the Constitution? There are many more reasons that are already mentioned.

4. Corruption is an inherent issue and problem in India and independent of demonetisation.

I will have to agree on this. But it is mystifying why the demonetization is being propagandized as done to attack corruption.

So if some nut of a manager wants to populate some Jan Dhan accounts with the hope of transfer/ withdrawal later and some teller assists him, they are all caught and easily charged with criminal conspiracy, fraud, IT fraud etc. I am not aware of how many types of crimes or their IPC Code. They are then done for. Days of such "Prem Chopdas" writing and substituting such "chopdas are gone in big banks at least.

In a country where those involved in conducting genocides in broad daylight get Z category police protection and sit in high offices, you are either being too optimistic or unrealistic. Yes may be some small fish will get caught, the real big fish know what they need to do.

[airgun_novice]

Dear goodboy_mentor,

I chose to stick to topic being discussed; I still do. So I am not going to fall for your insinuations here.

After all, I do not make anti-Indian statements or support them (now did we not have someone make statements to the effect to wanting to start an armed rebellion against Republic of India) and then make them mysteriously disappear.

I do not wish to hurt sentiments of an important chunk of my own Indian community by discussing history of Punjab in 1700s period or even 1980s (when 6000 terrorists had stocked weapons and sex slaves inside the holiest of the holy). A few stayed on the outside and seemed to have escaped retribution. India should have carried out Mossad style hunting then. My views, of course.

I do not wish to recount the gratitude of Lahore throne shown during the Third Battle of Panipat, after it was liberated from Pathans and returned to the Sikhs by the Marathas or similar kind and grateful gestures by some of the Rajputs and Jats. After all, even Guru Govind Singh was at a point left high and dry by those for whom he fought - Marathas can not expect anything different or special.

A few like Maharaj of Bharatpur or Nawab of Ayodhya repented later, openly. After all, the Marathas were fighting their war against the Pathans. The only Sikh who is worthy of praise during that period was Jathedar Sardar Aluwahlia, who was opposed by his own brethren and discouraged from joining the Maratha War Effort, all out of fear of Abdali. Eventually he did break free from such narrow-minded shackles, gained some support and numerical strength and beat back Abdali forces during later invasion. But then of course, a few would know that. Never mind. To be fair, it was wrong acts by Malharrao Holkar all along that had alienated Jats and Rajputs against the Chhatrapati of Satara. It was he who stopped Raghunathrao Peshwa from wiping out the menace of Najib-ud-Daulah by threatening suicide. It was he who betrayed the Maratha forces during the main battle of Panipat by not only running away but also not providing rations. So I agree that the blame of Panipat also rests heavily on Marathas under Holkar.

The Bargi(r)s - yes, I could have discussed in details that too. They were (in modern parlance) Black Ops - not against the "Bengalis" but against NAWAB OF BENGAL and after 10-year campaign, it resulted in liberation of Odisha and reduced atrocities on Bengali Hindus and liberation of Kashi, Mathura, Vrindawan etc. from the Mughals/ Nawab and their mercenary Pathans. The Marathas had also gone to help and fight for Maharaj Chhatrasaal of Bundelkhand. SO much so for their restriction within "Maratha Empire". Incidentally the Bargis were charged by Indian history with only "plunder" of Nawab's domain.

Shivaji's "Maharashtra" (The Third Maharashtra in history - Rashtrakut through Deogiri and Vijaynagar were thus called earlier) zig-zagged from Konkan in west to Chennai-Tanjavur in the east. Only Bajirao I and Maharana Ranjit Singh later had foresight similar to Shivaji Maharaj. But then "Nationhood" is not easily understood by all, is it ? British propaganda is easily digestible. SO be it.

Now I urge the general readership

1. To put full trust in the two CMs mentioned by goodboy_mentor as visiting RBI - but after knowing who they are, do not abandon hope. They are epitome of administration, nationalism and patriotism.

2. Get urged to curse the "babus" but for whatever reason put faith in one Deputy babu from RBI recommended . Do not bother to read what Parekh of HDFC, Kochar of ICICI, Subhash Chandra of Esssel, Bill Gates, Forbes Magazine, Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev, Anna Hazare etc. have stated or what 82% of the ordinary folks believe. Remember just as there was not much time to print "enough" new notes, there was absolutely no time to brainwash them or threaten them like Mao's Cultural Revolution. In any case, ours is a land where with Faith even a sparrow becomes a hawk, so wouldn't do good to kill sparrows like the Communist Chinese.

3. Oh yes, and while on RBI - wasn't Mr. Manmohan Singh the Governor of RBI ??? Without him warming the PM's chair, we all would have seen the ATM a few minutes earlier post-9th Nov. After all, most of the trash that has collected and needs cleaning since he was asked out, has come out of counterfeit-across-border/ coal/ 2G/ 3G/ CWG/ etc. which accumulated in his reign.

Last but not the least, hope our readership understands the difference between "difference in opinion" and attempt to incite passions of general populace, aka propaganda observed in plethora of online sites/ media. But hey, don't lose hope or sleep.

As for me, I stood in the line for Rs. 2500 after 50 min of entertaining wait (no fisticuffs or abuses or "chillum-chilla" as shown repeatedly in media) but people tired after a hard day's work, waiting patiently in line - chatting and joking with absolute strangers. The only regret I had is that I did not vote for the current PM or his party any time.

And no - I could not get into a bank branch in 90 minutes to change the last few of my 500 rupee notes. But Dec 30 being still away, I shall stand in line again.

Now this is last on the topic from me - as kshitij pointed out, topic's been digressed... all under Freedom of Expression we enjoy because no Emergency is imposed in spite of three reasons to do so

regs
A.

PS: goodboy_mentor, you really are a good boy when you mentor - so my respect for the good mentoring job you do in guiding people on license procurement, basic rights etc. is still intact. Peace always...

[goodboy_mentor]

Dear goodboy_mentor,

I chose to stick to topic being discussed; I still do. So I am not going to fall for your insinuations here.

Dear AGN do admire your skills of how to digress from the topic and blame it on someone else when you do not have the answer. Who brought in the topic of Maratha Empire and started comparing it with the Indian State? When it was squarely rebutted you start claiming that the topic is being diverted.

About insinuations? Who is insinuating a Chief Minister of State by giving a particular name? Who is insinuating about the name of a State by calling it cut hilsa? Who is fomenting "passions" by making these insinuations? For your information the Indian State or Indian sub continent is not father's property of "uncut hilsas". It belongs equally to all regardless cut or uncut hilsa. Now do not say I am fomenting "passions". I have explained it with proper logic and reasoning. If you believe that the Indian State or sub continent is father's property of uncut hilsas then do explain it with proper reasoning and logic to this forum. I will surely not complain that you are raising "passions".

After all, I do not make anti-Indian statements or support them (now did we not have someone make statements to the effect to wanting to start an armed rebellion against Republic of India) and then make them mysteriously disappear.

From where did you get this dream that someone is asking to start an armed rebellion? If you are referring to the reply given in this post here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24767#p244968 then I will have to congratulate you that you have great power of imagination. "pressure and arms twisting" is not equal to armed rebellion. It also includes the pressure of votes and courts. Maybe you do not believe in these methods, thus they have no place in your imagination. Did you note the words "last resort"? Rebellion by people as a last resort is part of Common Law. it is their human right. If you are not aware please read the Preamble of Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which the Indian State is also signatory.This is what it says -

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law

It means if you want to prevent rebellions then protect human rights. Otherwise rebellion or rebellions are inevitable.

I do not wish to hurt sentiments of an important chunk of my own Indian community by discussing history of Punjab in 1700s period or even 1980s (when 6000 terrorists had stocked weapons and sex slaves inside the holiest of the holy). A few stayed on the outside and seemed to have escaped retribution. India should have carried out Mossad style hunting then. My views, of course.

"my own Indian community" knows it's own history and how it has been subtly distorted to suit the vested interests and who these vested interests are. Your noble views are self evident when you call the pilgrims that had collected on the day of martyrdom of their religious pontiff as 6000 terrorists and sex slaves. Either you are grossly misinformed or deliberately spreading disinformation to cover up well planned genocidal war of aggression and war crimes. A fairly accurate account of what happened is described in a book named The Gallant Defender by Late Ajit Ram Darshi. The book is available for download at http://www.sikhsiyasat.net/wp-content/u ... anwale.pdf

I do not wish to recount the gratitude of Lahore throne shown during the Third Battle of Panipat, after it was liberated from Pathans and returned to the Sikhs by the Marathas or similar kind and grateful gestures by some of the Rajputs and Jats.

Marathas did not "return" Lahore to anybody but leased it to Adina Beg Khan for sum of 75 lakhs a year. Even if they "returned" Lahore to someone, it was because they were unable stay in Punjab for various reasons as mentioned below by Dr. Hariram Gupta in his book History of the Sikhs 1739-1768 (Evolution of Sikh Confederacies).

Raghu-nath Rao did not like to stay in the Punjab and keep it under his personal charge for several reasons.

The Punjab was far away from the home of the Marathas and the rough and slow means of communication of those days made it difficult for them to pay frequent visits to their home. It was also subject to extreme changes of climate, the burning summer and the freezing winter. The rivers were not easily fordable in the rainy season, as they swelled on account of snow melting on the Himalayas. They were also placed in the midst of a hostile population in Northern India which did not look upon the Marathas in a friendly way and called them Ghanim, i.e., plunderers. Being the frontier province, it was also exposed to foreign attacks, the brunt of which was to be borne by them if they kept it under their control. To crown all, they were exasperated by the Sikh disturbances and thus they were not sure of a steady income. In view of all these circumstances they decided to place it in charge of Adina Beg Khan, who was an experienced and seasoned administrator and could successfully handle the Sikhs. They therefore conferred the title of Nawab on Adina Beg Khan and leased out the province to him for 75 lakhs of rupees a year. Then the Marathas returned towards Delhi, arriving at Thanesar on the 5th June where they had a religious bath on Somawati Amawash.

From the perusal of a Marathi letter dated June 1755, it appears that the Sikhs left Adina Beg Khan near Thanesar and advanced further into Namaul and Kanaud. the territory of Madho Singh Raja of Jaipur, and created disturbances there. The Raja sent his agent to the Marathas for help and hired Achyut Rao for Rs. 5.000 per day. When this force allied width that of the Raja approached them, they retired towards the Punjab.

Dattaji appointed Sabaji Sindhia to take over the charge of Lahore but himself stayed there. It seems he did not venture to advance farther from fear of the Sikhs, as is clear from the account of the Delhi historian: ''On finding that in Lahore and around it the Sikhs were predominant and commanded a vast force, making the conquest of the Punjab difficult, Dattaji turned back towards Delhi.

Sabaji succeeded in maintaining peace and order in the country for some time. The vast Maratha armies lying near Delhi at the beck and call of the Maratha Governor of Lahore made the raisan and zamindars of the Punjab obey him. With the help of the Sikhs, he also succeeded in beating back Jahan Khan who had led an expedition from Peshawar across the Indus.

A Marathi despatch says : — "Behind were 3,000 horse and 3,000 foot near Multan. They came safely to this side of Lahore. In the Doab (Jullundur) the gawars (villagers) have united and made rows.

When some of our men had crossed the Sutlej and some were still on the farther bank, they fought and took away 4,000 camels, each worth Rs, 40, looted mohars (gold coins) and rupees. 500 men, naked from the waist upward came yesterday on foot. 1,000 horses., large and small, have come ; all the rest have been given up to plunder. A great disaster has befallen us."

A few like Maharaj of Bharatpur or Nawab of Ayodhya repented later, openly. After all, the Marathas were fighting their war against the Pathans. The only Sikh who is worthy of praise during that period was Jathedar Sardar Aluwahlia, who was opposed by his own brethren and discouraged from joining the Maratha War Effort, all out of fear of Abdali. Eventually he did break free from such narrow-minded shackles, gained some support and numerical strength and beat back Abdali forces during later invasion. But then of course, a few would know that. Never mind. To be fair, it was wrong acts by Malharrao Holkar all along that had alienated Jats and Rajputs against the Chhatrapati of Satara. It was he who stopped Raghunathrao Peshwa from wiping out the menace of Najib-ud-Daulah by threatening suicide. It was he who betrayed the Maratha forces during the main battle of Panipat by not only running away but also not providing rations. So I agree that the blame of Panipat also rests heavily on Marathas under Holkar.

Marathas were not fighting "their war" or anybodies war, they were fighting their own war like everybody else. This is a fact of History unless it is deliberately distorted to suit some vested interests.

Jassa Singh Ahluwalia was leader of Dal Khalsa, a confederation of all Sikh groups. So just admiring him and leaving others out is incorrect. Yes it is to his credit that Jassa Singh Ahluwalia who attacked the rear of booty laden army of Ahmad Shah Abdali after Third battle of Panipat with around only 2000 soldiers and rescued the captive Maratha women and young boys who were on the way to be sold in the slave markets of Kabul and Basra. It is around that time the saying "Morien Baba Kutchh waliya, runn chalee Basre nun" became prevalent. In English it means - Baba wearing Kutcha please stop the woman being taken to Basra(for being sold).

Attacking the booty laden armies was not something only done by Jassa Singh Ahluwalia. It was a regular feature of Sikhs. They did it with nadir Shah, they did it with Ahmad Shah Abdali. That is why nadir Shah had named them Nihangs. In Persian Nihang means crocodile. Sikhs of that time lived and breathed war, war is all that they knew.

And Sikh "fearing" Abdali or anybody is just bunkum. They never had the numerical strength like Marathas, they also did not have artillery and despite Punjab being a terrain not suitable for guerrilla warfare, they successfully carried it out and became sovereign rulers of their homeland. Obviously their mode of warfare would be different and strategies change as per the situation. Again from the same book by Dr. Hariram Gupta -

But a sudden rise has a sudden fall too. These three expeditions had seen Ahmad Shah Abdali at the zenith of his power, while the following three were to witness him declining to his nadir. During his seventh campaign (1763-64) he met with a tough opposition from his bearded enemies and had to withdraw from Lahore without achieving anything, His eighth invasion (1764-65) was equally fruitless, and in- his onward march towards Delhi he was so severely obstructed that he had to fight always on the defensive. During his ninth expedition (1766-67), he was constantly harassed by the Sikhs, so much so that he tried to win them over by favours and concessions, but utterly failed in it. In his last invasion (1769) he could not proceed farther than the Jhelum. this time the Sikhs had securely established themselves as absolute masters of the major portion of the plains of; the Punjab between the Indus and the Jumna. To the course of this glorious achievement of the Sikhs we now turn,

After all, even Guru Govind Singh was at a point left high and dry by those for whom he fought - Marathas can not expect anything different or special.

I do not know what you are trying to convey. He wanted the Rajput Hill Rajas of present day Himachal Pradesh to join him against the Mughals. There response was inconsistent. And their main grievance was that he had polluted their caste system by making people of all castes drink water from same vessel. He had to fight more wars with these kings than with the Mughal Empire. When they were unable to defeat him they complained to Aurangzeb and sought his help. Only then Auranzeb came into the scene. So the matters are self evident as to who was playing what kind of role. There are plenty of such instances in Sikh history about such incidents. About Maratha Empire was it not caste based? There is a book available at this link that is describing many things in depth http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/Si ... lution.pdf There is a Chapter on Rajputs, Marathas and Sikhs in that book.

The Bargi(r)s - yes, I could have discussed in details that too. They were (in modern parlance) Black Ops - not against the "Bengalis" but against NAWAB OF BENGAL and after 10-year campaign, it resulted in liberation of Odisha and reduced atrocities on Bengali Hindus and liberation of Kashi, Mathura, Vrindawan etc. from the Mughals/ Nawab and their mercenary Pathans. The Marathas had also gone to help and fight for Maharaj Chhatrasaal of Bundelkhand. SO much so for their restriction within "Maratha Empire". Incidentally the Bargis were charged by Indian history with only "plunder" of Nawab's domain.

As already mentioned the Marathas were seen by local population of North India as plunders, it is reasonable to conclude they were perceived similarly by Bengalis. The Bengalis that flocked to Kolkata under terror of Marhatha raids were from both the religions. Since Kolkata had predominant Hindu population that is why it was part of India and not Pakistan in 1947.

Shivaji's "Maharashtra" (The Third Maharashtra in history - Rashtrakut through Deogiri and Vijaynagar were thus called earlier) zig-zagged from Konkan in west to Chennai-Tanjavur in the east. Only Bajirao I and Maharana Ranjit Singh later had foresight similar to Shivaji Maharaj. But then "Nationhood" is not easily understood by all, is it ? British propaganda is easily digestible. SO be it.

Maharaja Ranjit Singh trusted the untrustworthy and his successors were also unable to understand the conspiracies being played by those whom they trusted blindly. These were the Dogra brothers, this is well documented fact of history. I have posted the video explaining this in detail in this post viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24748#p244748

1. To put full trust in the two CMs mentioned by goodboy_mentor as visiting RBI - but after knowing who they are, do not abandon hope. They are epitome of administration, nationalism and patriotism.

I have to agree because a person who for whatever reasons failed to do his Constitutional duty as Chief Minister to prevent or stop a crime against humanity in progress undergoes some revolutionary changes when he sits on the seat of Prime Minister. He becomes the epitome of administration, nationalism and patriotism(whatever that means in the dictionary of our esteemed member AGN).

2. Get urged to curse the "babus" but for whatever reason put faith in one Deputy babu from RBI recommended . Do not bother to read what Parekh of HDFC, Kochar of ICICI, Subhash Chandra of Esssel, Bill Gates, Forbes Magazine, Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev, Anna Hazare etc. have stated or what 82% of the ordinary folks believe. Remember just as there was not much time to print "enough" new notes, there was absolutely no time to brainwash them or threaten them like Mao's Cultural Revolution. In any case, ours is a land where with Faith even a sparrow becomes a hawk, so wouldn't do good to kill sparrows like the Communist Chinese.

What kind of interests Parekh, Kochar, Chandra, Gates etc. represents is well known. In "national interest" and spirit of "patriotism", we must kill the sparrows with Mossad like operations so that they may not become hawks. Anyways we do not need hawks now, we have used them and abused them sufficiently, since we cannot now brainwash them to hunt for us, we can also kill them all by poisoning them. If they do not take the poison we can plant some quisling like leaders who will do our job for us. Haven't we already planted? Or we can start a war with neighboring country and use them as canon fodder in "national interest". Or better throw some nuclear bombs and blame it on neighboring country!

3. Oh yes, and while on RBI - wasn't Mr. Manmohan Singh the Governor of RBI ??? Without him warming the PM's chair, we all would have seen the ATM a few minutes earlier post-9th Nov. After all, most of the trash that has collected and needs cleaning since he was asked out, has come out of counterfeit-across-border/ coal/ 2G/ 3G/ CWG/ etc. which accumulated in his reign.

Yes we need to clean so much that everything becomes "All Clear". Let us see what actually happens.

Last but not the least, hope our readership understands the difference between "difference in opinion" and attempt to incite passions of general populace, aka propaganda observed in plethora of online sites/ media. But hey, don't lose hope or sleep.

Sure readership is mature enough to understand fact from fiction. Everything is self evident.

As for me, I stood in the line for Rs. 2500 after 50 min of entertaining wait (no fisticuffs or abuses or "chillum-chilla" as shown repeatedly in media) but people tired after a hard day's work, waiting patiently in line - chatting and joking with absolute strangers. The only regret I had is that I did not vote for the current PM or his party any time.

And no - I could not get into a bank branch in 90 minutes to change the last few of my 500 rupee notes. But Dec 30 being still away, I shall stand in line again.

Looks like he is enjoying standing in queues and wants everyone to also enjoy standing in queues. is it not like that jihadi(suicide bomber) who wants to die but also wants all others around him to die with him?

Now this is last on the topic from me - as kshitij pointed out, topic's been digressed... all under Freedom of Expression we enjoy because no Emergency is imposed in spite of three reasons to do so

By not imposing emergency no favor is being done to anybody. If there is need for emergency as per Constitution then let Emergency be declared in national interest. Where is the problem, why Constitutional duty is not being done?

[StampMaster]

Get urged to curse the "babus" but for whatever reason put faith in one Deputy babu from RBI recommended . Do not bother to read what Parekh of HDFC, Kochar of ICICI, Subhash Chandra of Esssel, Bill Gates, Forbes Magazine, Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev, Anna Hazare etc. have stated or what 82% of the ordinary folks believe. Remember just as there was not much time to print "enough" new notes, there was absolutely no time to brainwash them or threaten them like Mao's Cultural Revolution. In any case, ours is a land where with Faith even a sparrow becomes a hawk, so wouldn't do good to kill sparrows like the Communist Chinese.

Bankers are happy because they are being re-capitalized. And probably this can be called BAIL-IN.
Jaggi- why does he even need money. He is a saint. Of course he has thousands of acres in his name/trust.
Anna Hazare- Anna is right about curbing black money. Not about making country men suffer.

Talking about facts, can anyone mention what is the success rate of government policies.

As for me, I stood in the line for Rs. 2500 after 50 min of entertaining wait (no fisticuffs or abuses or "chillum-chilla" as shown repeatedly in media) but people tired after a hard day's work, waiting patiently in line - chatting and joking with absolute strangers. The only regret I had is that I did not vote for the current PM or his party any time.

Good for you. I think you reside in city (metro or state capital). We've had problem with banks in Hyderabad. There was no cash for 4 days in quite a number of bank etc. And till date we haven't seen new Rs 500 notes (well, some of my closest friends are bankers and we've business account).

Those in the middle class have taken what they deem to be the higher moral ground, for they have mostly avoided suffering from the demonetization. Lacking moral instincts — which is unfortunately the case with much of Indian society, given its deep-rooted irrationality and superstitions — they cannot see or feel the pain of those who are suffering, even if that suffering stares into their faces.

But events are in motion that will likely very soon lead to these salaried members of the middle class starting to feel the pain as well. Their instinctive trust in Modi is likely within weeks of coming crashing down, not because of reasoned argument, but because they will be facing similar problems as the ones the common man is now facing.


Businesses are in coma, as they have no cash (small change) to return during sales.

And last but not the least, why did the govt and RBI release Rs2000 note from day one and Rs500 is not yet to be seen? Any person with little sense can understand, that there is something fishy here.

Remember just as there was not much time to print "enough" new notes

There will never be sufficient time or notes, as you have mentioned of fractional reserve banking.

As you've mentioned 'End of the day the "note" is nothing more than a promissory note given by the Governor of RBI (under the RBI Act and Coinage Act and Negotiable Instruments Act as applied concurrently and con-temporarily) but distinct in that any other promissory note is not equivalent of currency though it is a legal tender.

If these notes are FAKE, then the digital currency is FAKER. Now, it is taking time to print and distribute cash across, if it is digital... there will print money with a stroke of keyboard, and so does inflation. Governments, central banks etc think they can control these things, but they have to realize that they are playing with nuclear reactor dial. When inflation struck it everything down.

I've put facts here. Only ones experience, understanding, imagination, education will help them take right decisions on time.