Pics of Some very fine guns of IFG member Shahid

[shahid]

The authentication from record register came in letter form, will post a pic. Look at the pic of the F Beasley gun, it's an exact replica.

If someone has more / better pictures of Beasley guns then post them here for comparision. However guns from this maker F Beasley may not be very common, perhaps the firm was not in business for many years.

Army & Navy were just a retail store, a co=operative in fact, outfitters. liquer sellers and department stores. They are still there on victoria street but with the changing times hardly have any shooting sports equipment now.

A & N guns were made by other manufacturers. This type that I have was perhaps classified in their catalouge as Grade IV.

Quite a few dealers in the UK still have 2nd hand A & N guns to sell, they keep cropping up.

[kanwar76]

The authentication from record register came in letter form, will post a pic. Look at the pic of the F Beasley gun, it's an exact replica.

.

Hmmmm I don't know much about your shotgun but just curiosity sake If you have proper letter from the record register or whatever you claim then why you posted info from this site.
http://www.archives.gla.ac.uk/collects/ ... ynavy.html

If I would have been at your place or I think anybody else at your place would have posted that letter here first

I really don't know why you started this topic again or are you here just for this?

-Inder

[Grumpy]

Look properly and you will see that the two guns you show are not the same at all. The Army & Navy is stocked to the fences whereas the `F.Beasley` ( a mis-spelling by Atkin, Grant & Lang as the gun is a Frederick Beesley - one of a pair of 16-Bores they are offering ) is not. The Beesley shown is a Rogers sidelock ejector.
The only gunmakers named `Beasley` ceased trading in the 1860s ( and were based in Birmingham. )
I don`t know what the problem is with this Army & Navy gun probably/possibly being a Birmingham made gun. W.C.Scott/Webley & Scott, William Powell and Westley Richards were/are all Birmingham gunmakers. W.C.Scott/Webley & Scott and Westley Richards were both trade makers - it is a fact that most boxlock actions ( wheoevers name appeared on the finished gun ) were supplied by one or other of those two companies.
There are loads of Army & Navy labelled guns laying at British dealers - the reason being that they sold a lot of guns to military/ex-military personnel and were - compared to a bespoke gunmaker - comparitively inexpensive.
By the way, I live in the South West of England. The Army & Navy records are held in Glasgow, Scotland. That`s a LONG way apart !

[mundaire]

I am not an expert - BUT if one observes the 2 pictures posted above, there are clear differences in pin and screw placement, suggesting at internal mechanical differences in the actions...

I understand Shahid's quest to ascertain the origins of his gun... hell, I have nothing at home as nice as that, and I still find myself curious to know more about the history of my guns! Who owned it before me? Where all has it been? What all adventures it must have seen... etc. etc. Guess, it's just human nature to want to know MORE... Guns usually outlive many generations, and many have interesting histories attached to them... some known and most unknown... anyhow, wish Shahid the best with his quest, and look forward to reading about what he finds out when he hears from the record keepers in Scotland...

Grumps is right, having recently acquired a centenary catalogue of Rodda & Co. (through the good graces of a very dear friend ) - I can safely confirm the wide variety of "store branded" as well as "brand name" guns retailed by them... of course the price list was mouth watering to!! If only one could be transported back in time... those prices combined with one's current bank balance... ah, we would all be princes then!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Grumpy]

If you look at the Army & Navy gun you will see that the gun is `stocked to the fences` meaning that the wood comes right up the the fence. ( The fences are the two bulbous lumps at the top and rear of the action. ) The Beesley has a clear metal `band` ( part of the action ) between the fences and the wood.
I, too, understand Shahids desire to attribute an actual maker for his gun but unfortunately that does not mean that a maker can arbitrarily assigned. Given the gun I could, by taking it apart, possibly attribute a maker......the odds are about 75:25 AGAINST in the case of an Army & Navy. If you were very, VERY, lucky I might be able to say who supplied the action, who built the gun, who built the barrels and who made the locks. The Army & Navy records are also not definitive: Whilst they assign a number to each maker, not all the numbers/makers are known, some makers are believed to have multiple numbers and some are known to have been incorrectly designated at the time of manufacture.
The point is that the actual maker might never be known. This makes no difference to the value of the gun as it would be valued as an Army & Navy NOT by whoever it was built it.
Just because one action looks like another means absolutely nothing. Most sidelocks look superficially like one another.
Most guns were bought in from the trade - in the case of the Army & Navy Co-operative ALL their guns were bought in.
I have a lovely W.J.Jeffery SLE here at the moment but have no idea who actually made it - I have my suspicions but no proof and no way of proving them. Makes no difference to the value of the gun though - it is valued as a Jeffery. I have a Stephen Grant that I know everything about. The difference being that Stephen Grant was a bespoke London maker. They made their own guns and their records still exist.
Unfortunately as far as British guns are concerned the name on the gun is what largely determines value - that and the condition.
I`m sick of all this rigmarole - if Shahid agrees to stop all this rubbish inventing spurious makers for his Army & Navy SLE, I`ll agree that it is a very nice gun. Let`s move on for goodness sake.

[mundaire]

And of course - I sincerely hope that this thread is not about revisiting old grudges etc... if it is, then the new rules do give other members a free hand as well... it's always a double edged sword, now isn't it?

[mundaire]

If you look at thr Army & Navy gun you will see that the gun is `stocked to the fences` meaning that the wood comes right up the the fence. ( The fences are thw two bulbous lumps at the top and rear of the action. ) The Beesley has a clear metal `band` ( part of the action ) between the fences and the wood.

Ah, I did notice that - but I did not know the correct term, so refrained from mentioning that point... I never ceased to be amazed by the fact that I seem to learn something new here almost every day!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Grumpy]

Sorry Abhijeet- whilst you were responding with two posts I was engaged in a major revision of my last post.

[shahid]

Rest assured guys, no grudges here at all, Grumpy is a good source of knowledge on British Shotguns one of my favourite subjects.

I agree with him, at the turn of the century, the gun trade was a consortium, some made barrels, some made actions, some were big names, while a few held patents, makers did buy things from each other to assemble gun.

The A & N store on Victoria street was a last stop for outfitting with supplies before taking the boat out to India or Africa and many other colonies.

A SHotgun was a necessary piece of harware those days. A few ducks or partridges for the pot getter in far away lands.

However the higher brass of the Army or Navy also visited these stores which had a rather posh location on vistoria street, and they did stock some products to cater to this end of the customers too.

I am sure that 80 % of my A & N gun could have been made in Brimingham by people like W & C Scott, or others. SOme H & H guns are also made by W & C scott, they held business interests here.

F Beasley could be only a design for the sidelock, say a particular action got cheaply for producing a 100 Grade IV guns. Overall it is the finsih and quality that matters of a fine Englsh sidelock. Lot of common antecedands and progination structure is common for most English makers.

Grumpy is based in UK so I posted him the link to look up some records if he is ever in Scotland.

Meanwhile I gave the details and a the picture of the serial number to a friend of mine who works in the port of tyne in Newcastle.

Fiona went through the records but she is no gun expert. Based on the pieces of info she gathered, she sent me a few scraps of paper, some camera pics ( not digital ) and a letter. A note from the librarian as well, but Kelly ( incharge of the archives ) is also not an expert on weapons. There could be mistakes in the record and weapon numbers might be batch numbers we cannot debate that, definetely possible.

This is the reason I feel if Grumpy lays his hands on the arhive records a much better picture will emerge. It is not important, but whenever there is a chance to visit Scotlans over the next few months / next couple of years, whenever. If I get a chance I too will try to look up personally.

As regards the picture on the Atkins & Lang website, the gun being sold as an F Beasley, may or may not be the correct picture, I don't knw, the picture is not good and the maker's name is not visible. However I feel there will be differences in designs of a 16 bore and 12 bore actions. A 16 bore action will have slighly smaller lock parts and firing pin parts, trigger control parts I guess,

[sangi]

Wonder why there is a tape around the trigger cover of the revolver ? Danish.

Anupam
The tape there is to safe the bluing of the trigger guard, as when ever we keep it in the hostler it get lighter. So its the desi style to save its bluing. :d

Danish

khairuddin & sons & imported barrels?that too an o&u? need more on that. availability,tentative costs,how does she fire?URGENT pls.that should go for all of us.

[shahid]

I can find out and let you know. THis gun was purchased in Delhi, not sure if in current production, I am quite out of scene with the Indian scenario right now.

[penpusher]

[aditya007009]

very nice pics.....

[captrakshitsharma]

Shahid Bhai .. how u doing?? I dunno if ud be able to Place me .... I was a first time dunebasher in a NISSAN PATROL with Harsh bhaiyya a couple of years back. I may see u at one of the off road drives happening around gurgaon and yeah some of ur pics have gone missing... if they may please be posted again for all of us to admire. So long

Regards
Rakshit.

[mahboob]

dont these arms belong to chaudhary farook salahuddin and chaudhary mehboob ali kaiser of patna?