Pics of Some very fine guns of IFG member Shahid

[shahid]

OK it must be university of Glasgow then. RUn a check there.

Reputed makers like WIlkies made guns and double rifles for Army & Navy. They still have a store on Victoria street. Remember going there in 2002.

I wonder if they sell guns or ammunition now.

Holland, Purdey, Churchill, Gibbs or anyone will make a gun for Army & Navy, Manton & Co, Lion and Lion or I rowda if the money is right.

You see, at that time all resources in London and Birmingham were pooled together. It was more the skill of the salesman who made the sale.

Jeffery and William Evans if they branched out to do business in their name to make more money and carry their customer base did a perfectly OK thing in a capitalist economy where dog eats dog.

THings were different then. By today's manufacturing standards, I would call them manufacturer, because as per ISO 9000 principles Design COntrol was in there hands. It does not matter in whose factory or plant they were made.

Opinions of yours or others on internet forums might differ. Everyone is entitled to hold his private opinion.

In my eyes I hold WIlliam and Jeffery as very smart businessmen who made good guns and made good money for themselves.

One of the sidelocks by Jeffery that Prabhat, Cooldude Arindam's relative acquired in 1999 is a 2 3/4 inch chambered gun with 28 inch barrels. It can match any Holland or Purdey for performance and handling.

[Grumpy]

Agreed, everyone is entitled to their opinion but a statement of fact is not an opinion. James Purdey never made any guns for the Army & Navy Cooperative and anyone who wanted a Purdey would have bought a Purdey/
Saying that:

"You see, at that time all resources in London and Birmingham were pooled together. "

is utter rubbish because it is just not true.

Churchill didn`t make any guns for anyone else because he didn`t make guns. Like Jeffery and William Evans he bought in guns from Birmingham trade makers. Unlike Wm Evans, Churchill DID specify the design. Jeffery specified some of the design aspects of his guns - such as the arcaded fences on his sidelocks - but not much else. Jeffery sidelocks are definitely quality guns. They might have been Birmingham made but they were made well by very good gunmakers. I have a Jeffery SLE resting about 4 feet from where I`m sitting - a lovely gun that I`ve bought for a friend.
There were - and are - some very good Birmingham gunmakers. Remember that William Powell, A.A.Brown and Westley Richards were - and still are - Birmingham gunmakers .... and some Westley Richards were made by Birmingham trade makers. A.A.Browns were primarily trade makers and made guns for Westley Richards, Robert Churchill and many others. Nowadays they are the only completely hand made guns made in England as far as I know. No CNC machining in an A.A.Brown.
George Gibbs made some of their own guns, had some made for them in Birmingham and were barrelmakers to the trade. Like most provincial makers their later guns were all bought in from Birmingham makers.
I`ve seen many of the Indian based gun retailers catalogues and have a copy of Rodda & COs 1929-30 Centenary catalogue filed on my PC. All those retailers offered guns made under their own name ( but not necessarily made by them - although Rodda and Co had their own Birmingham factory for many years ) and offered guns by other makers. In the catalogue mentioned Rodda offered a huge range of guns, rifles and pistols under their name but also guns, rifles and pistols by: Winchester, Browning, BSA, W.W.Greener, Westley Richards, Holland & Holland, James Purdey, John Rigby, Savage, Webley & Scott, Colt, Mauser and Remington.
They did not offer Rodda & Co labelled guns made by James Purdey - or Holland & Holland for that matter - and neither did the Army & Navy Co-operative.

[shahid]

All of them, Lion & Lion, Manton, Rowda sold guns from other makers as well. They did not gun made from top london makers, but Jeffery and William Evans did.

What was the outlet for say Holland if one of their orders got cancelled ? Sell it to Army & Navy gun department, William Evans or other such people of course.

[shahid]

This happens even today. Kent cartidge co. and Hull make cartridges for Burberry. Now this is purely a fashion store but they sell shooting products under their own brandname.

[Grumpy]

"All of them, Lion & Lion, Manton, Rowda sold guns from other makers as well. They did not gun made from top london makers, but Jeffery and William Evans did.

No they didn`t.

What was the outlet for say Holland if one of their orders got cancelled ? Sell it to Army & Navy gun department, William Evans or other such people of course."

Rubbish.

[shahid]

Contradiction. Showrooms of Lion & Lion, Manton did have all makes of guns so did their catalouges so how is it wrong. They did sell and got theirs made in Birmingham and Europe. Belgium perhaps.

Even for a top London gun many parts did come in from Birmingham. No maker will disclose this. But it is a closely guarded fact. H & H even got some barrels made from W & C Scott. Later they owned it.

It is true that goodLondon Gunmakers did make firearms for William Evans and Jeffery. Your saying rubbish will not change the facts. I too have very authentic sources and information on this. The firm of Wilkies even made 600 NE for Jeffery.

[shahid]

Gentlemen I verified. My Army & Navy shotgun was manufactured by Bisley. My apologies for the wrong info the Calcutta Gun delaer had given.

We were able to trace the antecedants of the gun.

It was made by M/s. Bisley in 1906, for the gentleman who was the Archtech for Victoria memorial in Calcutta.

Later in the 1930s it was acquired by the Zamindars of Murshidabad in West Bengaul and remained in their possesion till 1986.

The Calcutta gun dealer had it there for a couple of years before my elder brother Kaiser bought it in 1989.

He gave me this gun in Jan 1999, and since then I have been useing this particular gun always during my skeet practise.

Westley Richards advertised of an exact replica, quoting a price of US $ 23,500 equivalent of Indian Rs. 9 1/2 Lakhs for this gun.

That has got me seriously thinking. Should I continue useing this or lock it away in a gun cabinet and only admire it ?

On 2nd thoughts do I have a better suited and balanced gun to match it ? No. So why not continue shooting a fine gun. I need to be careful with it although.

[Grumpy]

Here we go again. Your gun was not made by Bisley. Try finding an English gunmaker called Bisley - you`ll have a problem because there isn`t one.

[Mack The Knife]

Grumps, he probably means Fredrick Beesley.

[art_collector]

.......or may be Bosley...Mitchel Bosley...a small gun maker....and I have personally seen quite a few of them in Calcutta . All of them were made in early 1900 .

AC

[Grumpy]

Mitchell, Bosley & Co, ltd were a firm of Birmingham stockers - established 1925, ceased trading c.1970. The did buy in guns from the Birmingham trade occasionally which they stocked and sold under their own name.
Frederick Beesely was a well-known gunmaker who worked for Purdey for a few years. He established his own company in 1879. His patent for the first true self-opening hammerless gun was granted in January, 1880 and sold to Purdey.
Beesley died in 1928 and the company was taken over by his son H.P.Beesley and run by him until 1937. The company name was sold for the first time in 1939 to Stephen Grant and Joseph Lang. In 1989 the name, along with those of Charles Hellis and Watson Brothers was sold to Chubbs of Edgware. All three were subsequently sold again are are currently trading as independent companies.
Most of the above information is courtesy of, and copyright owned by the Internet Gun Club.
I would be startled to discover that Fred Beesley built any guns for the Army and Navy Co-operative because Beesley was a top class gunmaker and Army & Navy were distinctly down-market. That is not to demean this particular gun which is a very nice example but the majority of Army & Navy guns were built by Webley & Scott in Birmingham and proved in London.
The Army & Navy Co-operative DID sell guns by other makers but those guns were bought in from and sold under their own makers name. In this they were no different from Rodda & Co, Mantons, Lyon & Lyon, etc. All had catalogues and sold cheaper guns under their own ( eg, Rodda, Manton, Lyon & Lyon ) names in addition to a large range of guns by other makers and acted as agents for other makers.- eg, Winchester, Webley & Scott, Westley Richards, Purdey, Holland & Holland, etc, etc, etc. In the case of Rodda & Co they maintained a factory in Birmingham and built some of the guns they sold under their own name. Abhijeet can confirm that the range of manufacturers sold by Rodda and Co was almost bewilderingly large. The Army & Navy were retailers only and built no guns.

[shahid]

Here's the pic of a Bisley ( Beesely or Besley, check spelling pls. ) And under it of my Army & Navy Gun.

[shahid]

The Bisley / Beesley picture is not exactly great but check some websites for a better picture. Here's a pic of my gun.Company Background
What Army & Navy Gun Records do we hold?
Interpreting the Gun Stock Book Records
Examples of Gun Types
Gaining Access to the Records
Suggestions for Further Research







Company Background
The Army and Navy Co-operative Society Ltd was formed in 1871 by a group of army and navy officers. It was their intention to supply “articles of domestic consumption and general use to its members at the lowest numerative rates”. The first store opened on 15 February 1872 at Victoria Street, London. At the end of 1873 a gun department was established.

By the end of the century the Society was issuing an enormous annual illustrated price list, had introduced telephone ordering and had reduced mail order prices. In 1934 the company’s official name became the Army and Navy Store Ltd and in 1973 Army and Navy Stores was taken over by House of Fraser. (Taken from Michael Moss and Alison Turton, A Legend of Retailing, House of Fraser: London; Weidenfield and Nicolson, 1989.)







What Army & Navy Gun Records do we hold?
The material from Army & Navy Store Ltd includes the following:

1882-c.1942; Gun stock books
details type of gun, name of purchaser, cost, selling price.
(Ref: HF 6/8/1-16)
1880-1965; Pistol stock books
details type of pistol, cost, selling price, maker’s name, name of purchaser and date of purchase.
(Ref: HF 6/8/17-24)
1893-1922; Revolver stock books
details type of revolver, cost, selling price, name of purchaser and date of purchase.
(Ref: HF 6/8/25-31)
1908-1940; Illustrated price lists.
(Ref: HF 6/9/1-9)
Feb. 1872-Sep. 1894; General price lists.
(Ref: HF 6/22/1-9)







Interpreting the Gun Stock Book Records
Each page is headed with a basic desciption of a generic type of gun. Most of the volumes have the following basic information about each individual gun, recorded by the staff of Army & Navy at the time of order and sale:



Guard No.
A running number allocated by Army & Navy CSL.

Barrel or Maker’s No.
A number allocated by the maker.

De.scription
Additional de.scription of the individual gun.

Size of Bore
As it says.

Order No.
The number of the order Army & Navy CSL placed with their supplier.

Date of Invoice
Date invoice from supplier to Army & Navy CSL.

Soft
Unknown.

Finished
The company or individual who finished the gun to the customer’s specification.

Choke or Cylinder
Details of any special choke or cylinder.

Cost (to buy in)
Code used is MAKE PROFIT with M=1, A=2 etc. There can be more than one set of numbers - usually a basic price and the cost of any additional features requested by the purchaser.

Selling (price)
Price paid by the customer.

Name of Purchaser
Name of the original purchaser.

Ticket No.
No. of the receipt issued.

Bill No. and How Sold
Number of Bill sent to customer and/or how it was sold (eg sent to Bombay store for distribution).

Date When Sold
The date when the customer paid the bill.

Remarks
Any other information that the salesperson wished to record about the purchase. (eg sent to Bombay store aboard the SS Egypt).







Examples of Gun Types
Here are some low resolution images of guns taken from the Army & Navy Store Ltd, Price List No. 102, 1935-1936.



Colt’s Automatic Pistols
Military Model 1911, Calibre .45, (Foreign Manufacture).
Larger version
24k JPG file
(305 x 255) (GUAS Ref: HF 6/9/1-9. Copyright reserved.)



Service Model “Mark VI”

“Mark VI”, .455, adopted by His Majesty’s Navy, Army, Indian and Colonial Forces.
(GUAS Ref: HF 6/9/1-9. Copyright reserved.) Larger version
20k JPG file
(380 x 204)



Winchester Rifles (Foreign)
Model 60 Bolt Action Single Shot Rifle.
Larger version
14k JPG file
(385 x 184) (GUAS Ref: HF 6/9/1-9. Copyright reserved.)







Gaining Access to the Records
There is no charge to visit our Searchroom to undertake research yourself, see the visit us page if you wish to come and see us. GUAS do not provide valuations of antiques of any kind. We suggest you contact your local auctioneers or antique dealer for advice of this kind.

However if you wish us to do the research for you, a charge of GBP 23.50 (including either VAT or a higher rate of overseas postage), (note: GBP = Great Britain Pounds) per search is made. This cost is per gun researched, is payable in advance and is non returnable if the search proves fruitless. Funds raised in this way contribute to the preservation of the records for future generations of users. It is important therefore that you take the time to provide as much information as possible with your enquiry. We suggest you provide as much of the following information as possible:

Specify gun type with name of maker if known (Army & Navy finished and sold guns for other makers).
Specify whether the gun is a shotgun, rifle, revolver, pistol etc. as the same numbers were issued to the different types.
Quote the code/reference number which should be stamped somewhere on the gun.
Give the gun’s date if known or at least an approximation.







Suggestions for Further Research
Very often the purchasers of Army & Navy guns were from the landed classes or of rank in the military. This could mean an entry in publications such as Who’s Who and Burke’s Peerage. You may therefore be able to find out more about the original owner of the gun. If the purchaser had a particularly unusual name you may also be able to find them in official Census records. Copies of Who’s Who and Burke’s Peerage are available in most major libraries in the UK. See http://www.census.pro.gov.uk/ for more on the Census.




Grumpy you are based in England, if this info helps you then pls look up here.

[shahid]

Found it, the maker is called F. Beasley.

For a 16 Bore Beasley for sale at Atkins , Grant & Lang check this link. These guys organize some great shoots as well.
http://www.atkingrantandlang.co.uk/gund ... asp?id=431

[Risala]

Shahid,

I think the point being made here is that Fredrick Beesley or F.Beasley did not make guns for Army & Navy
Co-operative,and neither do the pics tell the story.

What you have posted is a brief about getting the info related to Army & Navy records,you have still not posted the details that substantiate your claim wrt to your Army Navy Shotgun No xxxx.

Pl do so if you have the info available,else this topic or discussion is not really going any where.


Sanjay