Pistol cock and carry/safety..

[james]

Is it safe to carry IOF pistol cocked i.e bullet in barrel .Kindly advice,Regards,James

[cottage cheese]

Is it safe to carry IOF pistol cocked i.e bullet in barrel .Kindly advice,Regards,James

No.

Unless you have a very demanding self defense circumstance, I'd advise against this practice. Never fully trust the mechanical safety of any gun irrespective of make least of all an IOF gun!

The IOF pistol has an internal hammer lumped together with a very poorly copied 1911 trigger/sear mechanism... this will give you no visual index of the cocked/uncocked status of the gun... plus since the hammer is internal you can't manually uncock it on a loaded chamber.... plus its the usual badly fitted and made parts and poor materials would leave you with an untrustworthy safety.

[mundaire]

CC is spot on - NEVER trust the safety mechanism on ANY gun!

Also, while it is not ideal to have to work the slide before deploying the pistol in a hurry - you can actually train yourself to do this in one quick & smooth action. Of course this would require you to use both hands...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[diskaon]

I remember seeing a gun holster which is designed in such a way that you actually push the gun down to cock it, rather than pull it out of the holster.

this could solve your twin problem of cocking for immediate action as well as safety!!

ofcourse, its worn on the thigh of the user... not a very practical solution.. unless you are a black cat commando...

[axp817]

or carry a double action only pistol. examples Sig DAK (or Sig SA/DA in DA mode), Glocks, etc.

[Grumpy]

"CC is spot on - NEVER trust the safety mechanism on ANY gun!"

Depends on the gun. `Cocked and locked` is standard practice for carrying so-called `single action` pistols like the 1911A1. The 1911A1 does have the benefit of the additional grip safety.
In a combat situation there invariably is NOT enough time to draw, rack and aim. It should be remembered that pistols are short-range weapons and that a criminal has extra time to escape whilst you are racking the slide......not to mention the fact that you are going to get shot whilst wasting time racking your pistol.
It`s interesting that whilst the majority of American police departments were loath to issue single action autos to uniformed officers because of a perceived safety problem detectives often used/use `cocked and locked` 1911A1s in concealed carry mode with no problem.
Elite groups such as the FBIs Tactical and Hostage Response Units are issued modified ( for accuracy and reliability ) 1911A1s NOT `double-action` semi autos.
The initial `self-cocking` trigger pull of a double-action semi-auto is both heavy and `creepy` which makes for very poor accuracy. Double-action semi-autos ARE considered safe for use by ordinary patrolmen.............and the incidence of accidental discharge has risen dramatically. Just goes to prove that safety is a matter of technique and training and that so-called built-in safety measures are no substitute.
Someone famous ( Col. Geoff Cooper ? ) announced years ago that an uncocked 1911A1 was a hammer not a gun. Absolutely right.

By the way, I am not suggesting that it is a good idea to carry a IOF pistol in cocked and locked mode.............

[cottage cheese]

"CC is spot on - NEVER trust the safety mechanism on ANY gun!"

Depends on the gun. `Cocked and locked` is standard practice for carrying so-called `single action` pistols like the 1911A1. The 1911A1 does have the benefit of the additional grip safety.
In a combat situation there invariably is NOT enough time to draw, rack and aim. It should be remembered that pistols are short-range weapons and that a criminal has extra time to escape whilst you are racking the slide......not to mention the fact that you are going to get shot whilst wasting time racking your pistol.
It`s interesting that whilst the majority of American police departments were loath to issue single action autos to uniformed officers because of a perceived safety problem detectives often used/use `cocked and locked` 1911A1s in concealed carry mode with no problem.
Elite groups such as the FBIs Tactical and Hostage Response Units are issued modified ( for accuracy and reliability ) 1911A1s NOT `double-action` semi autos.
The initial `self-cocking` trigger pull of a double-action semi-auto is both heavy and `creepy` which makes for very poor accuracy. Double-action semi-autos ARE considered safe for use by ordinary patrolmen.............and the incidence of accidental discharge has risen dramatically. Just goes to prove that safety is a matter of technique and training and that so-called built-in safety measures are no substitute.
Someone famous ( Col. Geoff Cooper ? ) announced years ago that an uncocked 1911A1 was a hammer not a gun. Absolutely right.

By the way, I am not suggesting that it is a good idea to carry a IOF pistol in cocked and locked mode.............

Well, Grumpy's suggestions are very correct .

I do understand 'cocked and locked' is a pretty valid and RELATIVELY safe way of fielding a hand gun. It ensures very quick response as well. One's decision to carry likewise should be tempered by your need to do so. Is the user under threat or lives or commutes in a rather unsavory area?

Most times in an Indian context, the mere act of drawing a gun and racking the action accompanied by appropriate body language is enough of a message for evildoers

James, if you fee your need is acute- by all means don't deny yourself the vital milli-seconds required for a quick response in an "shoot first" confrontation. But take care to acquaint yourself with your gun's operation, safety features and of course don't forget to practice shooting.

I still am dead against doing the above with an IOF pistol.

[mundaire]

I have seen the thumb safety of the 1911A1 fail on a number of occasions - thankfully each time the chamber was empty! While this could be because of worn out springs or other parts - it does underscore the fact that one CANNOT depend on a safety mechanism...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Grumpy]

Abhijeet, I`ve only known the thumb safety to fail on a 1911A1 once - and that was on a well-used GI pistol that had been subjected to a home polishing job. It also discharged in full-auto mode most of the time - a pistol that I mentioned on another thread a couple of days ago.
Maintenance is just another aspect of safety - if a pistol isn`t properly maintained it isn`t safe and shouldn`t be used.

[james]

Thanks for all the advice,further need information about Mauser HSC.Is this pistol safe for cock and cary use,how much this pistol in good barrel/body condiction costs in India.What is the magzine capacity/can 12 rounds magzine can be fitted.kindly advice.Regards James...

[Risala]

Mag cap in 32 ACP is 8 and 380 is 7.Double acton with a exposed hammer.In good condition it should cost
around 3 or up.
I think as regards carrying a cocked pistol enough has already been said,the same rules should apply here too.
Sanjay

[Mark]

If the IOF 32 is supposed to be a copy of the 32 colt, will parts interchange?

If this is a personal defense weapon, which it sounds like it is, it will only be of use to you if it is carried loaded. As mentioned, you are potentially losing ANY reflex time you have by pulling out an unloaded pistol and trying to cock it.

Additonally, you need 2 hands to do it so if someone is really coming after you you don't even have a spare hand.

So the issue for me, is how can this pistol be made as absolutely reliable as possible? Possibly talk to the police department to see if any carry this gun, and who is the gunsmith who works on them. If it is an exact copy, then I'd look for some genuine colt trigger sear, safety, hammer, and mainspring parts to put into it.

[axp817]

i agree with Grumpy and others that cocked and locked with a good quality and well maintained SA pistol like the 1911 is a safe and reliable way to carry. I only mentioned carrying DA pistols for people who will never come to accept that it is indeed safe to carry a SA (again, good quality and well maintained, i dont know what the IOF semi-auto is like) pistol cocked and locked.

Yes, DA triggers have a long, heavy pull, but with the improvements made in making the long pull very crisp (the DAK trigger), and with enough practice, accuracy can be brought up too, although maybe not up to the levels of a fine 1911.

-N

[mundaire]

Abhijeet, I`ve only known the thumb safety to fail on a 1911A1 once - and that was on a well-used GI pistol that had been subjected to a home polishing job. It also discharged in full-auto mode most of the time - a pistol that I mentioned on another thread a couple of days ago.
Maintenance is just another aspect of safety - if a pistol isn`t properly maintained it isn`t safe and shouldn`t be used.

Grumps, this happened a few times while trying to use the thumb safety to "decock" the hammer to the half-cock position. It mostly works, but ever so often it allows it (the hammer) to fall all the way... a very disturbing phenomena if you happen to have a live round in the chamber!

[Grumpy]

Thanks for clarifying that Abhijeet...............

I think that you ought ............ I think that it is IMPERATIVE that you read read the following:



The Conditions of Readiness:

The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the "Condition" system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol. The are:

Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.

Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.

Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.

Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.

Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

The mode of readiness preferred by the experts is Condition One. Generally speaking, Condition One offers the best balance of readiness and safety. Its biggest drawback is that it looks scary to people who don't understand the operation and safety features of the pistol.

Condition Two is problematic for several reasons, and is the source of more negligent discharges than the other conditions. When you rack the slide to chamber a round in the 1911, the hammer is cocked and the manual safety is off. There is no way to avoid this with the 1911 design. In order to lower the hammer, the trigger must be pulled and the hammer lowered slowly with the thumb onto the firing pin, the end of which is only a few millimeters away from the primer of a live round. Should the thumb slip, the hammer would drop and fire the gun. Not only would a round be launched in circumstances which would be at best embarrassing and possibly tragic, but also the thumb would be behind the slide as it cycled, resulting in serious injury to the hand. A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, although actual instances of this are virtually nonexistent. Finally, in order to fire the gun, the hammer must be manually cocked, again with the thumb. In an emergency situation, this adds another opportunity for something to go wrong and slows the acquisition of the sight picture.

Condition Three adds a degree of "insurance" against an accidental discharge since there is no round in the chamber. To bring the gun into action from the holster, the pistol must be drawn and the slide racked as the pistol is brought to bear on the target. This draw is usually called "the Israeli draw" since it was taught by Israeli security and defense forces. Some of the real expert trainers can do an Israeli draw faster than most of us can do a simple draw, but for most of us, the Israeli draw adds a degree of complexity, an extra step, and an opening for mistakes in the process of getting the front sight onto the target.

Using the "half-cock" as a safety

The half-cock notch on the M1911 is really intended as a "fail-safe" and is NOT recommended as a safety. However, it has been used as a mode of carry. From Dale Ireland comes this interesting piece of service history from WWII:

When the hammer is pulled back just a few millimeters it "half cocks" and pulling the trigger will not fire the gun [on genuine mil-spec G.I. pistols]. I imagine this is an unsafe and not a recommended safety position. The reason I bring it up however is that it was a commonly used position especially by left-handers in WWII. My father carried his 1911 (not A1) to Enewitok, Leyte, first wave at Luzon, the battle inside Intramuros, and until he was finally shot near Ipo dam. He tells me that he regularly used the half cocked safety position especially at night and patrolling because bringing the weapon to the full cocked position from the half cocked created much less noise and he was left handed so he couldn't use the thumb safety effectively. He said using the half cocked position was all about noise reduction for lefties while maintaining a small amount of safety that could quickly be released.

Again, the half-cock is intended as a fail-safe in the event that the sear hooks were to fail, and it is not recommended as a mode of carry. It should also be noted that on guns with "Series 80" type hammers, the hammer will fall from half-cock when the trigger is pulled. This would include guns from Springfield Armory and modern production Colts. But, if you happen to be a south paw and find yourself in the jungle with a G.I. M1911A1 and surrounded by enemy troops, the half-cock might be an option.