Winchester Mod. 1910 S.L.

[Risala]

It does not make sense to sell it,given the limitations in this case,however ammo for this Cal is available in the US and he can try to import it,when ever he is there next,else the could try loading his own ammo.

Sanjay

[Mack The Knife]

Most probably broken extractor or ejector.

I very much doubt that. According to the owner when he pushes the plunger down it extracts and ejects the spent case, picks up a fresh round from the magazine and chambers it and cocks the trigger.

Hope I'm not doing the ramming down the throat bit here

Not at all. It's just that I was not able to push the barrel down, like I do on an Auto-5. Perhaps I need to apply more pressure.

I'll get you some scans of its exploded line diagrams as well as the disassembly procedure. I dont have a scanner so I'll have to get it done elsewhere. hop you can wait.

I will be extremely grateful if you can let me have this information.

Thanks.

Mack The Knife

[Mack The Knife]

Pran, the rifle will be at my place again tomorrow. If the owner permits, I will post the pictures here.

AC, Sanjay, et al, the rifle is NOT for sale. I was merely curious what it would cost to buy such a rifle and round in India today. Thanks all the same.

Mack The Knife

[Pran]

Pran, the rifle will be at my place again tomorrow. If the owner permits, I will post the pictures here.

Wokay. If you need an extra hand while working on it I'm only a call away

Pran

[cottage cheese]

Most probably broken extractor or ejector.

I very much doubt that. According to the owner when he pushes the plunger down it extracts and ejects the spent case, picks up a fresh round from the magazine and chambers it and cocks the trigger.

Hope I'm not doing the ramming down the throat bit here

Not at all. It's just that I was not able to push the barrel down, like I do on an Auto-5. Perhaps I need to apply more pressure.

I'll get you some scans of its exploded line diagrams as well as the disassembly procedure. I dont have a scanner so I'll have to get it done elsewhere. hop you can wait.

I will be extremely grateful if you can let me have this information.

Thanks.

Mack The Knife

Hi again Mack The Knife,

Didn't have time or access to a decent scanner. So Ive made a PDF of what I could cobble together at very short notice. I actually ended up photographing the page on my book and enhancing it on photoshop!! If you should require more detailed images do let me know - I'll get the pages scanned properly.

The PDF covers details for the Model 1907.

Models 1905, 1907 and 1910 are more or less the same except for dimensional differences, ammo, and sights.

PDF attachments don't seem to be allowed so you'll have to give me an email ID I can send it to.

If you feel you should disassemble the bolt... be prepared for a frustrating thumb busting exercise. We actually ended up having to fabricate a make-shift notched "L" shaped tool to make the bleeding spring and guide rod fit properly.

While the extractor is pretty conventional, the ejector is another crazy masterpiece of engineering. It's dovetailed almost seamlessly into the thin inner wall of the receiver. Making and getting a replacement to fit would be challenging for almost anyone.

Well, going by your friends de.scription, we can then rule out extractor-ejector problems. That would leave us with dud ammo as a likely culprit. Remember, the bolt is very heavy and the spring combined with the tension of the hammer spring presents a lot of inertia to be overcome even for a powerful round like the .401.

Rusty... I guess you may have misunderstood the bit on ramming down throats...I was actually meaning if I was shoving know how down your throat!

Also please don't try pushing the barrel. It wont budge as its fixed. Remember this was a simple blowback action(albeit a closed bolt type)

[Mack The Knife]

PM sent.

Thanks a lot.

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

Well that`s interesting - the old advertisement plainly states that the rifle is recoil operated but if the barrel doesn`t move it can`t be.

If this IS a simple blowback design it`s hardly surprising that it was never very popular - only about 20,400 odd rifles were built from 1910-1936. Most of them seem to have been supplied to prison guards. A simple blowback design in a powerful calibre doesn`t inspire confidence.

Good point about the extractor - that could be broken, worn or have a build up of crud preventing operation.

Parts are still available - and quite cheaply - from Numrich Gun Parts Corp:
http://www.e-gunparts.com/
The parts schematic and list is at:
http://www.e-gunparts.com/productschem. ... el=0950z10

I see what is meant by the massive bolt - and the fore-end tube allows the forward extension of the bolt to cycle within it.

I`ve no idea about the value of the rifle in India but top whack for an excellent example in the US is around $700 - it`s just not a popular rifle and very difficult to sell.
It occurs to me that it is a gas blowback design in which case gas will be bled off from the barrel into the cylinder in order to cycle the bolt. As such there should be a port from the barrel to the tube which, if blocked, will prevent proper operation. Check for a port and clean ity out well with a pece of stiff wire. Material blocking the port might be carbonised and very hard.

The Model 1910 was designed to be used with 200-250 gr bullets so that shouldn`t be a problem......although the lighter weight bullets will cause more problem if the ammo has gone a little soft. My experience of old ammunition is that no matter how well it has been stored there will be variations in cartridge performance......and the older it is the more variable it is. This ammunition is likely to be VERY old.

Incidentally, you might be interested in this extract :

"The Model 1910 Winchester semiautomatic carbine was not one of Winchester's great success stories. It had what gun collectors have come to call a "tissue-paper sear"—that is, it had a bad tendency to go off with any sort of shock and on occasion to empty its seven-shot magazine fully automatically.

A 1943 manual issued to State Guard units during World War II discusses the various weapons to "borrow" for State Guard use. The federal government did not furnish State Guards with weapons; they had to see to a supply of weapons for themselves. While the manual speaks approvingly of the Springfield trap-door breechloader, which hadn't been produced since the 1880s, it specifically warns against trap-type, single-barrel shotguns, which were not customarily equipped with manual safeties, and the Model 1910 Winchester semiautomatic carbine, which it characterized as being "extremely hazardous."

which comes from an excellent on-line article about the `Hole in the wall gang` of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid fame by C.F.Eckhardt. The full article can be viewed at:
http://www.texancultures.utsa.edu/hidde ... dBunch.htm

[Mack The Knife]

Thanks, Grumps.

Will go through the link later.

However, that bit about the tissue paper sear has me worried. Never was comfortable around semis, leave alone those that had a mind of their own and went full auto.

CC, did your friend ever have this full auto problem?

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

I shouldn`t worry too much about the rifle going full-auto: Just remember that if you`re stood in front of the gun you`re an idiot. That applies to any gun.
Full-autos I have known...........
Quite a few actually. The first was an M1 carbine about forty years ago. M1 carbines are notorious for going full auto - especially as they get older and more worn. With a thirty round banana mag they don`t half get hot as well. I`ve known a couple of full auto 1911A1s - included in the best part of half a dozen race guns. A couple of .22 lr rifles. M1 carbines and .22 lr rifles have a really fast cyclic rate due to the low mass of the moving parts. An M1 carbine will empty a thirty round magazine in half a second.
The best I think are A-5s 12-Bores......ker chung ker chung.
It`s very easy to make most semi-autos go fully auto........and also bl**dy stupid !

[cottage cheese]

Thanks, Grumps.

Will go through the link later.

However, that bit about the tissue paper sear has me worried. Never was comfortable around semis, leave alone those that had a mind of their own and went full auto.

CC, did your friend ever have this full auto problem?

Mack The Knife

Hi Mack The Knife and Grumps,

First Grumps - The M1910 is...well blowback... straight blowback... no gas impingement anywhere. The large fore section of the bolt looks deceptively like an arrangement for a gas actuated mechanism. This section serves only to add mass to the breech/bolt assembly. The Old advertisment probably could be using older terminology(My humble opinion). BTW thanks for the links. Didn't know that parts were still available. I wonder what would be the possibility of importing a firing pin...or would it be worth while? My friend snapped his firing pin while dry firing it(A lot) so thats why he handed me the gun for repairs. Had a new pin turned on a lathe and that was it.

Mack The Knife,

The trigger mechanism is very similar to the M1Carbine, but a closer resemblance would be our service issue SLR. The sear is spring loaded and pivots and slides on a cradle formed by the upper trigger area. The silding movement of the sear (forward under its spring tension)is what intercepts the hammers sear notch during the recoil stroke. There is a timer trip sear front-left side of the hammer that adds a measure of safety by keeping the hammer locked(Even when the trigger is fully depressed during the firing cycle) until the breech has closed fully and a fresh round is properly seated in the chamber. This timer sear also acts as the primary sear in full auto operation (Though not entirely intentional). All that needs to happen for full auto to take place in such a mechanism would be for the trigger to some how pivot just a few degrees more than its designed allowance. Thats about it- The sear would then not be able to intercept the hammer's notch and the trip sear take over as the primary sear till the trigger is released. Thankfully, the timer sear allows for (At east mechanically) safe full auto operation. All full Auto mechanisms have a timer sear. In the model 1910 the trigger has an extended tongue that contacts with the safety catch. The safety catch contours (Fire position) are calculated to simply to limit the movement of the trigger to allow only semi auto. This is the key. Many enterprising gunsmiths on both sides of the law simply filed down the fire notch on the safety catch an mm or two to go full auto. If I recall this modification was popular in Latin Americas endless political upheavals in the past. All the smiths had to do next was to fabricate an extended or drum magazine.

"Tissue-Paper sear" would, to the best of my knowledge, be a situation when probably from wear or parts failure/displacement, perhaps even manufacturing errors, the trigger pivots that essential few extra degrees to go rooty-toot-toot. Highly unlikely with sparingly used guns like we have here.

Since my friend has had almost no ammo for a very long time... I doubt he may have suffered the misfortune!

[Mack The Knife]

Just remember that if you`re stood in front of the gun you`re an idiot. That applies to any gun.

True but the onus for keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction at all times is on the chap holding it.

[Grumpy]

Thanks for the info Cottage Cheese ( what`s your name - I feel silly calling you Cottage Cheese or Cottage.........No, definitely not Cottage - too much like `cottaging` which has somewhat doubtful connotations ! ) ( I`m pleased to see that you managed to get the extra `e` by the way. )
Yes, I`d decided after examining the picture that there was no way the bolt could be gas operated because it isn`t cylindricaL
Straight blowback is a stupid idea in a rifle of this power.
The problem with the sears by the way is reckoned to be one of poor metal which caused them to wear excessively. A problem that Winchester never bothered to correct - probably because sales were so slow, only an average of 788 units being sold per year during its 26 year life.
John.

[Mack The Knife]

The M1910 is...well blowback... straight blowback... no gas impingement anywhere.

Thanks CC, that's all I needed to know.

Will get a better idea if I decide to strip the rifle.

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

Ah `CC` - that`ll do !

[cottage cheese]

Ah `CC` - that`ll do !