Winchester Mod. 1910 S.L.

[Mack The Knife]

A friend of mine has one of these in .401 calibre.

He is currently using 200 grain Eley rounds but the rifle is not cycling.

What could be the possible reason for this?

Thought I would ask before opening her up.

Thanks.

Mack The Knife

[cottage cheese]

A friend of mine has one of these in .401 calibre.

He is currently using 200 grain Eley rounds but the rifle is not cycling.

What could be the possible reason for this?

Thought I would ask before opening her up.

Thanks.

Mack The Knife

Hey Rusty,

So does a friend of mine.

What is the nature of the non-cycling- Non-reload, non-extraction, non-chambering?
There's very little that will go wrong this gun since its a blow back with a huge and I mean HUUUUGE massive bolt. I remember the bolt constituted a significant part of the mass of the gun. The point is, with such simple and need I say gargantuan mechanism components I feel the problems could be whittled down to a few points:

Ammo(Not likely with Eley Shots-I could be wrong as vintage shots could present insufficient pressure levels to cycle the mammoth action )
Return Spring tension.
Damaged magazine- The magazine in this case is of machined steel rather than pressed steel, so how much damage it can pick up is relative.
Dirt?
Extractor/Ejector Damage

Take care when you take apart the return spring from the bolt- Its a bit*h to put back.
Trigger mechanism can't present too many problems as its as simple as it can get - a clone..rather predecessor of the M1 Carbine trigger group.

[Mack The Knife]

Hi CC,

Will confirm the exact nature of the problem and revert to you.

Thanks.

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

The ammo mught have gone `soft` Dodger - not developing enough pressure to cycle the action. I don`t know when Eley last made .401 cal ammunition but it was a very long time ago. Just about the only other candidates are a soft or broken spring or dirt preventing the bolt from closing properly.
The 1910 is recoil operated so there won`t be any problems with gas ports being blocked.
"since its a blow back" Er, no. A rifle of this power would be a lethal - to the shooter - proposition if it were blow-back.
ChunkY ole gun ain`t it ? Looks like a lever action with the lever missing.......also looks like it has two magazines - a box magazine and a tube magazine.
As far as I know all M 1910s are take down ..... but I`ve only seen pictures so don`t know how it takes down.
Have a look at this March 1910 American magazine advertisement for the Model 1910..........but ignore the comments on the .30 cal Springfield ( 30-06 )

[Mack The Knife]

The ammo mught have gone `soft` Dodger - not developing enough pressure to cycle the action.

That could well be the case, Grumps. It is old ammo but very well packed and stored.

Could it also be the wrong type of ammo? My friend recalls reading a forum where 240 grain rounds were recommended for this rifle.

Just about the only other candidates are a soft or broken spring or dirt preventing the bolt from closing properly.

That was my first thought but I thought it prudent to get a few opinions before trying to play the role of Mr. Gunsmith.

The 1910 is recoil operated so there won`t be any problems with gas ports being blocked.
"since its a blow back" Er, no. A rifle of this power would be a lethal - to the shooter - proposition if it were blow-back.

Glad you clarified that. Considering that the barrel does not seem to move back, I was wondering why CC refered to it as a blowback action. However, my knowledge about these things is minimal to say the least.

ChunkY ole gun ain`t it ? Looks like a lever action with the lever missing.......also looks like it has two magazines - a box magazine and a tube magazine.
As far as I know all M 1910s are take down ..... but I`ve only seen pictures so don`t know how it takes down.

Chunky but very manouvreable. Quite a bit forward heavy if held by the trigger grip only. This one is a take down. There is a knurled screw head just behind the receiver for fixing the butt stock. Will take a few close-up pics when it is brought over next.

Have a look at this March 1910 American magazine advertisement for the Model 1910..........but ignore the comments on the .30 cal Springfield ( 30-06 ).

Thanks a bunch. I am pretty sure my friend will be chuffed to see this old ad for his rifle. BTW, would you know where I can find a parts diagram and parts list for this rifle? Online information on this rifle seems to be rather thin, so if you or anyone has some dope on it, I'd be glad to see it.

Mack The Knife

P.S.: Was the .401 a grizzly round?

[Pran]

Mack The Knife,
What's cycling?

Pran

[Mack The Knife]

CC,

It's not extracting the spent casing.

Mack The Knife

[Mack The Knife]

Mack The Knife,
What's cycling?

Pran

The process of extracting, ejecting and reloading a new round into the chamber.

[Mack The Knife]

Grumps,

How does a recoil operated action actually work?

Mack The Knife

[art_collector]

Hi Rutam,

Tell ur frend that he shud try and save his .401 ammo. It will eventually help him to sell the rifle if he wishes to that later.

401 ammo is worth its weight in gold. It is no more imported....nor it can be found at any shop. If he has bought them lately ask him to buy some more and keep them. He wud always thank u for the advise.

AC

[Mack The Knife]

Thanks AC but that is exactly what he is doing.

Just out of curiosity, what would such a rifle sell for in India? There's a reasonable amount of ammo to go with it.

Mack The Knife

[cottage cheese]

CC,

It's not extracting the spent casing.

Mack The Knife

Most probably broken extractor or ejector.

Another cause would be old 'softened' ammo as grumpy mentioned.

BTW... though I found it surprising and odd at first that it was in fact a plain blow-back. Thats why it has such a massive bolt and stiff recoil spring. The bolt occupies the usual 3-4 inches or so behind the breech and extends like a heavy sleeve half the way up the length of the barrel. The wooden fore grip, is thus, a thin walled shell that simply covers the bolts fore section. Believe me the bolt is big and heavy!

It has a machined box magazine and the tube like extension in the fore end is the plunger type cocking piece.

I'll hazard a 'butt in' as regards your query to Grumpy.

The recoil action has many avatars. The simplest and quickest illustration would be to take a look at the M1911 .45 auto. Its about as generic as it can get. You'll see that the barrel and slide remain locked and slide together for about 5mm- at the limit of this movement the barrel has also tilted down because of its hinged link. This causes its locking abutments to disengage from corresponding grooves in the slide and the two part company till the slide returns with a fresh round from the magazine. This is more commonly called 'short recoil' -

'Long recoil' would be where the breech block/bolt assembly remains locked with the barrel for the full recoil stroke, unlocking at the end of the stroke, a separate spring drives the barrel forward after which a lever trips the breech/bolt assembly to come forward as well. Common examples would be the Browning Auto-5 semi auto shotgun...the Chauchat and stuff like the Barrets M82.

The locking of either type or any other is to delay the opening of the breech till the bullet has exited the barrel and the pressures in the bore have dropped down to a safe level. Locking systems of any type usually allows for a light and small breech/bolt assembly even when used with powerful ammo types.

There are other permutations of the two types of recoil as well, that use separate locking pieces and levers to effect the...well ...locking. And of course thats just the tip of the iceberg.

Hope I'm not doing the ramming down the throat bit here

ACs suggestion is useful. My fiend has an unsalable gun because he has 4 rounds left!

I'll get you some scans of its exploded line diagrams as well as the disassembly procedure. I dont have a scanner so I'll have to get it done elsewhere. hop you can wait

[eljefe]

Indian market can be variable with the Gas operated status?

Blow back is -where the amount of gas produced at firing is balanced by the weight of the bolt and the mainspring.these two would start recoil cycle when a certain pressure is reached.Most blow back are open bolt-i.e bolt is held back to rear and act of pulling the trigger releases the bolt, which strips a round from magazine, fires it and extracts/ejects it.Simplest way to go.e.g STEN-the old carbine??
Due to size weight and spring limitations, usually was reserved for low vel rounds.

Closed bolt is: charging handle retracted to pull bolt back, released, strips round from mag and goes into battery .After firing, when gas pressure drops to a certain , predetermined level,the bolt 'unlocks' (usually there's a gas tap off from the barrel, which drives a piston in gas chamber back to strike bolt face) and unlock/extract/eject- most 'modern' assault rifles (work on this principle...
Enjoy
Axx

[art_collector]

Hi Mack The Knife,
Cant say much regarding the price u wud manage. Finding a buyer wud be difficult because of it being a semi auto. So cant be endorsed on an ordinary civilian licence.
Tell ur frend to ask the price for his ammo and give the rifle free along with it specially if u have say 300 or 400 rounds with it. The ammo sells for about 300 /- each.
Selling a 401 is not going to be easy.

AC

[Pran]

Mack The Knife,
What's cycling?

Pran

The process of extracting, ejecting and reloading a new round into the chamber.

Thanks.Would love to see pics of the rifle if it were to land at your place.

Pran