AARMR Hurricane Model 15. First Impressions. Picture Heavy

[Big Daddy]

However I would continue to fiddle with my old Hurricane trying some imported springs and piston seals because I think may be I can squeeze 14 to 15 ft-lbs with JSB Jumbo Express pellets with reasonable accuracy and consistency if I am lucky with my limited abilities. If I am successful in that experiment I'll post the details in another new thread. Now I have nothing to post in this thread that would be useful to anybody.

GNV

GNV,

15 ft-lb will be a very good achievement provided accuracy stays intact. It'll bring a sense of satisfaction for sure. And you are wrong...we eagerly look forward to the chrony result. It will give a great idea of the gun overall, specially since we know what is inside.


Main13,

I am not getting in to this mud slinging...however, with due respect, i'd like to point out some things.
Firstly, many members on this thread (and i know many of them personally) are masters in AR's. They do not wish to publish their toys, but trust me, they have stuff worth dying for. Quality AR's, some of the best in the world, and they strip and service them with ease. Talked to them and they are in disagreement with you. The point is, GNV has striped the gun and we have a fair idea of the internals, swept volume etc. Now, what ever done, modifications can only be done to a certain limit, unless the whole design of the gun is radically changed.

Now, what i noticed (and not accusing any one) is, after 696 fps, the loading takes a little longer and then it goes to 718. later continuous shots and drops to 687 fps few seconds delay then BANG a solid 100 fps more...and the reading is 787...longer loading.....bang more dieseling and 807. Now whats interesting is the dieseling is suddenly more when fps increases. Was the oil hiding in the internals???. Normally dieseling should reduce with each shot. This is totally inconsistent in the video.

fpe is definitely being influenced in a way that's screwing the gun.

The AARMR, based on GNV's report seems to be a nice gun. HOWEVER, IT IS NOT DESIGNED TO BE A MAGNUM, and with ever argument you make towards that, i'm afraid bro, you'r only slinging mud at yourself.

All this asides, why are you so personally standing by this gun to this extent???.

Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity. Now that is definitely NOT directed at you. Its something many of us have learnt the hard way.

Beyond this, if you still insist on the magnum thingy, ....all the best.

This is from the heart of one airgunner to another. Cheers!!!

BD

[GNV]

Main,
Have you examined the video closely? I am not doubting you or anything. I frankly think The AARMR guys are taking you for a ride in this video.
GNV

What are hinting at sir? Lets see, I'll be buying the gun myself by month end, customized to my specs. Will upload results of that as well. That will take some time. Untill then this is the best I could get. Will try to upload video proofs henceforth (provided they do it).

Am looking forward to the performance data of your gun post tuning. Did you get that machined guide & new spring as you mentioned earlier? The AARMR guy says Cherokee or Taco springs do very well in it.

Dear Main,

I don't understand why you are so desperately believing everything this AARMR guy is telling you. I am beginning to think that they are telling all sorts of crap to keep you interested in their gun and to get feedback from you from the discussions on the forum.

How can you believe that video they sent you represents the quality of the gun. It shows how poor is that gun. It seems they only want to show that their gun can cross 800 FPS. Any large spring air gun can cross that mark with deliberately induced dieseling. And this gun is puffing like a locomotive. The very first thing I noticed when I watched the video first is that lubricant bottle. The chrono results clearly indicates deliberately induced dieseling may be for every shot except the initial lower ones.

Out of the box doesn't mean right from the first pellet shot. It means from when the initial dieseling stops. My Hurricane took some 50 pellets before the dieseling stopped and I chronographed it then. Even before lubricating the gun was consistent within acceptable limits and crossed 12 ft-lbs with light weight pellets with extreme spread of about 30 fps. JSB Jumbo Express ( 14.35 grn ) gave an average 11.32 ft-lbs with an extreme spread of 8 fps. That was before the gun was properly broken in. Which was pretty good and much, much better than my PH Orion.after break in. The highest velocity I got was with 11.3 gr RH pellets 676 fps for 11.48 ft-lbs.

Now they are claiming 750 fps with 16 grn pellets. The changes they made are Nylon Spring guide, piston rear thrust bearing and a nylon top hat. These changes don't increase MV like that.I already told that in one of my previous posts. They make the gun smooth only. Making these changes is not expensive or time taking.

They refuse to change the stock. That is because molds are very very expensive and a new mold costs several lakhs of rupees. And takes time to make one. Synthetic stocks are easier to manufacture and less expensive than wooden stocks. But initial cost of mold is very high. They could offer wooden stocks instead. But nobody would buy a gun with this current stock and they have to scrap its mold. Very expensive option.
Now about consistency. In an air gun consistent accuracy is more important than raw power. A 10 ft-lbs consistently accurate gun is much better than a 20 ft-lbs inconsistent gun always. People want to hit their targets when they shoot. Not hope to hit their targets sometimes.

Even if what everything the AARMR guys claim is true, they would not be selling their guns for 8000 rupees.

If they are genuine with their claims, tell them to present a properly shot video with a broken in air rifle with their choice of pellet with consistency. Then they would not be able to meet the demand for their guns. People would pay twice the current price for such a 20 ft-lb gun gladly. And tell them to stop trying to fool people with videos like this one.

Till now I had been thinking that they are trying to make a good gun. But this video proves that they are hoping to make such gun and meanwhile they are trying to make fools of people.

GNV

[main13]

Ok guys! Here's the deal, & you have my preemptive apologies for this.. Please read on...

It seems that the manufacturer had indeed been using hydraulic oil for lubing his guns all this while!!!!

Call this plain stupid or whatever but the gentleman had been doing so all this while & asking me why is the gun giving 'inconsistent velocities'.. but never for once bordered to tell me he was using gun oil to lube the thing! (I presumed him to be smart enough to not do so...)

Been travelling over the weekend, so had very poor, 2G internet access. Hadn't seen the video in fact, just copy-pasted the link & other info I received via Whatsapp. Went to a cafe just to watch this video in peace & turns out your analysis was spot on!

When I asked the guy, he said that's what he uses to lube his guns..!

I guess I owe an apology to more than one people here. I can be pretty combative when 'attacked', esp if I feel wronged...
I apologize to any & all of you whom I might have offended, intentionally or otherwise.

Having said that I've asked the manufacturer to use only moly to lube the gun & shoot another video with a gun once it has broken in. Lets hope he does that...

I hope this makes it clear to almost everyone that I'm not hired by AARMR to be their marketing troll but another passionate shooter like yourselves who went out if his way to help an 'Indian Magnum'.. Lets hope that dream materializes some day... Amen!

BTW an old ex-teacher of mine expired today while teaching his class.. Brilliant guy, very knowledgeable, amongst the best in his profession.. Perhaps you guys could spare a moment for him if you feel like. I am having a rough weekend it seems...

[Basu]

Very well said GNV !!
My experience is , if this AR stays at 12 fpe mark with such soft cocking with added smoothness after tuning.......plinking will be of great fun.
Stretching power limit beyond 12 fpe , may prove to be counter productive.

Basu

[Big Daddy]

Main,

We mean well. As GNV said, don't let them fool ya.
SDB came up with their new model SE. They gave me the prototype to test on the condition I send honest feedback's and scope for improvement, which they have put every effort to work on. BTW I neither had nor have any affiliation with that company. Yet they wanted genuine feedback from someone not related to them.

Doc, if i recall what I came to know, called senior IFG members to test the Precihole and opinion was worked on even though he is an authority in springers. There was a barrel droop initially which was acknowledged and rectified in further batches (if i remember well).

Perhaps its the attitude of this two manufacturers that AARMR has to emulate in order to exceed with their gun.

Once that is set, we are all more than happy to chip in.

BD

Added in 3 minutes 27 seconds:

Ok guys!
BTW an old ex-teacher of mine expired today while teaching his class.. Brilliant guy, very knowledgeable, amongst the best in his profession.. Perhaps you guys could spare a moment for him if you feel like. I am having a rough weekend it seems...

May your teacher's soul rest in peace, and may God grant strength to the family loved ones and his students

[main13]

Main,

We mean well. As GNV said, don't let them fool ya.
SDB came up with their new model SE. They gave me the prototype to test on the condition I send honest feedback's and scope for improvement, which they have put every effort to work on. BTW I neither had nor have any affiliation with that company. Yet they wanted genuine feedback from someone not related to them.

Doc, if i recall what I came to know, called senior IFG members to test the Precihole and opinion was worked on even though he is an authority in springers. There was a barrel droop initially which was acknowledged and rectified in further batches (if i remember well).

Perhaps its the attitude of this two manufacturers that AARMR have to emulate in order to exceed with their gun.

Once that is set, we are all more than happy to chip in.

From what I have gathered from my interaction is that these guys are quite honest, but inexperienced in airgun manufacturing (the tech guy with whom I routinely speak hasn't yet mastered their imported CNCs). They have been very receptive with my suggestions & ask for feedback when they don't know something. However I do find a sense of money mindedness in their approach. I suppose that's normal for any businessman.

I really wasn't too surprised when he readily accepted he was using gun oil for lubing. However will be more careful with believing these guys in future.

Have asked him to make a new video with a broken-in gun, lets see when it happens.

May your teachers soul rest in peace, and may God grant strength to the family loved ones and his students

Thanks much! The guy was a genius IMHO. Made economics champs out of engineers! Too bad we lost him. Poor fellow collapsed in the class, but only after ending his lecture.. Guess he asked Yamraj to wait outside the class until he finished!

[kshitij]

I would like to add only one small thing to what BD, GNV and Basu have already said, we all(atleast me) have learnt and are still learning new things here on IFG. This forum is a place where we can share our experiences and ideas, and seek help knowing well that we are amongst fellow enthusiasts and help and encouragement will always be recieved. However at the same time we must ensure that our contributions are meaningful and not misleading in anyway. Else we will only degrade this platform we have right now.
Anyways, Main13, my condolences for the loss of your teacher. May he rest in peace.

[brihacharan]

BTW an old ex-teacher of mine expired today while teaching his class.. Brilliant guy, very knowledgeable, among the best in his profession.. Perhaps you guys could spare a moment for him if you feel like. I am having a rough weekend it seems...

Very sorry to hear about your teacher's sad demise....
Its verily said that " A Teacher's influence affects eternity & no one knows where it stops"!!!
May His Soul Rest in Peace!!!!!
Briha

[main13]

my condolences for the loss of your teacher. May he rest in peace.

Very sorry to hear about your teacher's sad demise....
Its verily said that " A Teacher's influence affects eternity & no one knows where it stops"!!!
May His Soul Rest in Peace!!!!!
Briha

Thanks a lot for your kind wishes gents. Glad to see the gentlemanly spirit alive & kicking..

BTW can somebody guide me regarding what should be the ideal tolerance between the mainspring & the piston?

Been struggling with smoothing out those vibrations. Tried several combinations thus far, none of them seem to be working. Being too far from the manufacturer to see it myself, I have to rely on what the person reports back...

[brihacharan]

BTW can somebody guide me regarding what should be the ideal tolerance between the mainspring & the piston? Been struggling with smoothing out those vibrations. Tried several combinations thus far, none of them seem to be working. Being too far from the manufacturer to see it myself, I have to rely on what the person reports back...

The mainspring fits between the central rod, which is used to engage the sear and the inside of the piston. The better the fit here the less the gun will buzz. Hence you need to know how long the mainspring will be when it’s fully compressed. That helps determine if you’ll be able to cock the gun or the spring will become coil-bound before the sear grabs the piston. The compressed mainspring has to fit in the space provided when the piston is in that position and the spring guide is in place, in which case the ideal gap / tolerance between the spring & piston should be between 0.5 mm & 0.75 mm. People have used thin metal sleeves to advantage….which you may try. See the pics below…you’ll get an idea!!!!


Briha

[main13]

The mainspring fits between the central rod, which is used to engage the sear and the inside of the piston. The better the fit here the less the gun will buzz. Hence you need to know how long the mainspring will be when it’s fully compressed.

Thanks much for the guidance Brihaji!

Wire guage = 3.2mm
No. of coils = 38
Hence compressed length = 38 X 3.2mm = 121.6mm

That helps determine if you’ll be able to cock the gun or the spring will become coil-bound before the sear grabs the piston. The compressed mainspring has to fit in the space provided when the piston is in that position and the spring guide is in place, in which case the ideal gap / tolerance between the spring & piston should be between 0.5 mm & 0.75 mm. People have used thin metal sleeves to advantage….which you may try.

Spring OD = 21.3mm
Spring ID = 14.9mm
Piston ID = 21.4 - 21.5mm
Guide OD = 15mm

So tolerance = 0.5~1.0 mm

What should be the tolerance between a compressed spring ID & guide OD?

Also, I need to figure out how to fully exploit the large stroke size. Am considering taking the biggest spring in the market whose OD < Piston ID & machining the guide to conform to spring ID.
What would you recommend?

The increase in power can be balanced by using heavier pellets which will lose energy much more slowly (higher BC) leading to greater range & more power being delivered to the target.

As of now, I'm not sure of the exact cocking effort needed in the current model but I suppose it will remain within manageable limits. Could somebody pls comment?

[aadhaulya]

one cannot make claims of performance from the drawing board. I have also got some wonderful turbocharged engines with unheard of performance but they never left my drawing board.

Atul

Can you share your ideas.

Ganeshn,

I can share my ideas. In fact I love to share my ideas even if the other person is not interested in my ideas.
Now, which idea of mine were you referring, that you want me to share.

Atul

[GNV]

BTW can somebody guide me regarding what should be the ideal tolerance between the mainspring & the piston? Been struggling with smoothing out those vibrations. Tried several combinations thus far, none of them seem to be working. Being too far from the manufacturer to see it myself, I have to rely on what the person reports back...

That helps determine if you’ll be able to cock the gun or the spring will become coil-bound before the sear grabs the piston.
Briha

My Hurricane has no forward spring guide and the coils are not touching when cocked. But they may touch each other with the new front hat in place. I don't know.
GNV

[Big Daddy]

One of the most common mistakes, if not the most common mistake made is the assumption that a larger spring produces more power. It's a very delicate balance between various moving parts of the gun, their dimensions and weight. A lighter spring that is better balanced WILL produce more power than a big bully spring.
The first step to making a gun better is to look in to reducing friction between moving parts. Transfer port length, Transfer port diameter, piston weight...etc play a major role.

BD

Added in 6 minutes 5 seconds:
GNV,
what is the weight of the piston?

BD

[ganeshn]

one cannot make claims of performance from the drawing board. I have also got some wonderful turbocharged engines with unheard of performance but they never left my drawing board.

Atul

Can you share your ideas.

Ganeshn,

I can share my ideas. In fact I love to share my ideas even if the other person is not interested in my ideas.
Now, which idea of mine were you referring, that you want me to share.

Atul

TCing and Engine tuning.

As of now, I'm not sure of the exact cocking effort needed in the current model but I suppose it will remain within manageable limits. Could somebody pls comment?

The peak cocking effort in Hurricane mod15 is 31lbs holding almost at the front sight.