Pathetic Indian Bureaucracy

[ankur_ank007]

Dear Friends and Respected Learned Senior Members,

Yesterday was my date of hearing with the Licensing Authority for Arms License, Gandhinagar, Gujarat. I reached there at 10:30 AM, I had to wait till 3 PM. The Collector came around 3 and went into his chamber. Some Viralbhai from DC office (who is said to be responsible for the processing of all the Arms License applications) came to me and said that the hearing has been postponed to 16th of December. He also said that there is no chance of grant of Arms License against my application because;
1. Honour Killing Threat is not grave and imminent kind of threat in their view.
2. I am not a permanent/domiciled resident of Gujarat.
3. Since I am not a millionaire, I must not have a threat to life, as per their believe.
4. I do not have a genuine need of an AL.

These reasons are stated even when there are 5 FIRs against my relatives informing threat to the life of my wife and myself and 8 letters to DM & Collector, SP and Mamlatdar for a fast track hearing of my application since I have a grave and imminent threat of Honour Killing referring to the various orders issued to all the SSPs, SPs, DM & Home Secretaries to take these kind of cases seriously. The date of application was 13 June 2015 and prescribed date of hearing as prescribed on the date of application was 28 Aug 2015.

I am now fed up with this high handedness and arbitrariness of these bureaucrats. I have filed an RTI with the home department asking for the reason of delay seeking response within 48 hours (As the issue is related to the violation of right to life and liberty) under section 7 (1) of the RTI Act 2005.

Please suggest, what further course of action should I take to defend my right to life and liberty.

Regards,
Ankur

[aadhaulya]

Ankur,

As discussed with you on phone also, it seems to be a helpless situation. You can't even go to court till your application is rejected and you have exhausted the option of appeal. Then off course things start moving but you can be sure that it would take months or years for the decision to come through.
What we need to find out is the following
1. Considering the urgency of your case can someone officially force a bureaucrat to do his duty on time. (May be an RTI to the Home Ministry demanding information of procedure to get him to do his job on time, if any)
2. Can the above be demanded from the court of law in a fast track mode??

If it is possible then you should explore those options open to you. If there is no such procedure, then Media is the only option but I have no Idea how it works.

Atul

[ankur_ank007]

Ankur,

As discussed with you on phone also, it seems to be a helpless situation. You can't even go to court till your application is rejected and you have exhausted the option of appeal. Then off course things start moving but you can be sure that it would take months or years for the decision to come through.
What we need to find out is the following
1. Considering the urgency of your case can someone officially force a bureaucrat to do his duty on time. (May be an RTI to the Home Ministry demanding information of procedure to get him to do his job on time, if any)
2. Can the above be demanded from the court of law in a fast track mode??

If it is possible then you should explore those options open to you. If there is no such procedure, then Media is the only option but I have no Idea how it works.

Atul

In Arumugam Servai vs State of Tamil Nadu on 19th April 2011 the Apex Court, in Para 17 of the judgement held and directed:

“Hence, we direct the administrative and police officials to take strong measures to prevent such atrocious acts. If any such incidents happen, apart from instituting criminal proceedings against those responsible for such atrocities, the State Government is directed to immediately suspend the District Magistrate/Collector and SSP/SPs of the district as well as other officials concerned and charge-sheet them and proceed against them departmentally if they do not (1) prevent the incident if it has not already occurred but they have knowledge of it in advance, or (2) if it has occurred, they do not promptly apprehend the culprits and others involved and institute criminal proceedings against them, as in our opinion they will be deemed to be directly or indirectly accountable in this connection."

I think if the DM/SSP etc are not taking fast track action on these kind of complaints and not taking it seriously, these may be found guilty of contempt of court. In my humble opinion, on this basis the bureaucrats can be forced to do their duty.


Regards,
Ankur

[aadhaulya]

Ankur,

This is a good judgement, but how long did the court take to arrive at the judgement. I am sure this is the best course of action that you can take.

Atul

[ankur_ank007]

Ankur,

This is a good judgement, but how long did the court take to arrive at the judgement. I am sure this is the best course of action that you can take.

Atul

I sent an email to the collector referring to this judgement & order yesterday, however there is no response to my email yet. Also, as discussed yesterday on phone I am going to send a reminder email to the CPIO of the MHA with respect to the RTI filed yesterday seeking for information within 48 hours undes section 7(1) of the RTI Act 2005.

Regards,
Ankur

[aadhaulya]

All I can say is 'all the best' and 'my best wishes to you' I am sure that you will get your license but I hope it happens soon.

Atul

[ankur_ank007]

All I can say is 'all the best' and 'my best wishes to you' I am sure that you will get your license but I hope it happens soon.

Atul

Thanks for your best wishes....

[goodboy_mentor]

Please suggest, what further course of action should I take to defend my right to life and liberty.

Regardless of what the LA is doing or not doing, if you urgently want to defend your right of life and liberty, the right forum would be High Court or Supreme Court. We live in a rotten state of affairs. Most probably the reply would be that Section 7(1) of the RTI Act 2005 is not applicable for arms license. These bureaucrats or any government servants who have "power" generally have inflated egos especially when it comes to dealing with "powerless" persons. Do things patiently and in a manner that does not hurt their false egos. Another member on this forum, though doing things legally and filing RTIs, was slapped with criminal cases under IPC. I am not trying to scare anyone, only trying to suggest that things be done with patience and prudence. This problem is a symptom of a colonial pathetic system that has been continuing and nourished for ages.

[ankur_ank007]

Please suggest, what further course of action should I take to defend my right to life and liberty.

Regardless of what the LA is doing or not doing, if you urgently want to defend your right of life and liberty, the right forum would be High Court or Supreme Court. We live in a rotten state of affairs. Most probably the reply would be that Section 7(1) of the RTI Act 2005 is not applicable for arms license. These bureaucrats or any government servants who have "power" generally have inflated egos especially when it comes to dealing with "powerless" persons. Do things patiently and in a manner that does not hurt their false egos. Another member on this forum, though doing things legally and filing RTIs, was slapped with criminal cases under IPC. I am not trying to scare anyone, only trying to suggest that things be done with patience and prudence. This problem is a symptom of a colonial pathetic system that has been continuing and nourished for ages.

Dear Sir,

Please suggest, what can be done and how should I proceed? I have not asked for urgent reply on my AL application, I have asked that what actions has been taken on my letters requesting for a fast track hearing. Have I done it right?

Also, out of curiosity, what kind of Criminal Cases under IPC can be slapped to a person going through legal route and filing RTIs?


Regards

Added in 2 hours 55 minutes 34 seconds:
Received the reply of RTI as follows;

"Reply :- The information sought by you does not fall within the meaning of information as defined in section two f of RTI Act Under the provisions of Section two f of the RTI Act the CPIO is responsible for furnishing information available in any material form including records documents memos etc The applicant right extends only to seeking information as defined in Section two f either by pinpointing the file document, paper or record etc or by mentioning the type of information as may be available with the specified public authority Further, no legal advice is given under RTI Act.Moreover, the subject matter pertains to State Government You may please approach the concerned Department of State Government of Gujarat."

[goodboy_mentor]

Please suggest, what can be done and how should I proceed? I have not asked for urgent reply on my AL application, I have asked that what actions has been taken on my letters requesting for a fast track hearing. Have I done it right?

I am not saying you are doing something wrong. These are your options:
If LA rejects, appeal to appellate authority
If appellate authority rejects, move to High Court or Supreme Court.
You may keep track of all this using RTI wisely.

Also, out of curiosity, what kind of Criminal Cases under IPC can be slapped to a person going through legal route and filing RTIs?

It is only limited by the desire, imagination and resources of those interested in filing false cases. When the case itself is fabricated or false, it can be about anything that suits the person interested in abusing the due process of law.

Received the reply of RTI as follows;

"Reply :- The information sought by you does not fall within the meaning of information as defined in section two f of RTI Act Under the provisions of Section two f of the RTI Act the CPIO is responsible for furnishing information available in any material form including records documents memos etc The applicant right extends only to seeking information as defined in Section two f either by pinpointing the file document, paper or record etc or by mentioning the type of information as may be available with the specified public authority Further, no legal advice is given under RTI Act.Moreover, the subject matter pertains to State Government You may please approach the concerned Department of State Government of Gujarat."

May read the attachments in the following thread https://www.indiansforguns.com/viewtopi ... 6&p=110113

[ankur_ank007]

[quote="goodboy_mentor"]It is only limited by the desire, imagination and resources of those interested in filing false cases. When the case itself is fabricated or false, it can be about anything that suits the person interested in abusing the due process of law.
[quote="goodboy_mentor"]

With reference to your comment about a forum member who was falsely made accused in several sections of IPC, I wanted to know, what kind of cases were slapped against him, and what was the outcome or end result?

[goodboy_mentor]

With reference to your comment about a forum member who was falsely made accused in several sections of IPC, I wanted to know, what kind of cases were slapped against him, and what was the outcome or end result?

Do not remember the exact Sections of IPC or Arms Act. Instead of telling that he will travel by car or something like that, in enthusiasm to get a transit license, the applicant submitted photocopies of train tickets. Later on due to some urgent reasons he had to cancel the tickets and book fresh tickets for different dates but within the validity period of license. Legally it means nothing since he traveled within the validity period of license. Ticket information was pulled out from railways and case was filed against him for not informing the change of journey dates. Moral of the story - With anyone, submit or share only the barest minimum of information that is required. More information than necessary will not help you, instead it may be used against you or create avoidable problems.

[ankur_ank007]

With reference to your comment about a forum member who was falsely made accused in several sections of IPC, I wanted to know, what kind of cases were slapped against him, and what was the outcome or end result?

Do not remember the exact Sections of IPC or Arms Act. Instead of telling that he will travel by car or something like that, in enthusiasm to get a transit license, the applicant submitted photocopies of train tickets. Later on due to some urgent reasons he had to cancel the tickets and book fresh tickets for different dates but within the validity period of license. Legally it means nothing since he traveled within the validity period of license. Ticket information was pulled out from railways and case was filed against him for not informing the change of journey dates. Moral of the story - With anyone, submit or share only the barest minimum of information that is required. More information than necessary will not help you, instead it may be used against you or create avoidable problems.

Got your point. You are absolutely right. Thanks a lot for bringing this point into my notice. Also, I was wondering if you would like to review the List of dates and events and basic facts of my application, so that if possible and if you don't mind you may share some knowledge with me. If yes, please email me so that I can share the details.

Regards

[goodboy_mentor]

Got your point. You are absolutely right. Thanks a lot for bringing this point into my notice. Also, I was wondering if you would like to review the List of dates and events and basic facts of my application, so that if possible and if you don't mind you may share some knowledge with me. If yes, please email me so that I can share the details.

I think you already have my email address.

[StampMaster]

Hi All,

I thank all the forum member for their contribution and support make IFG and guns laws better. However, i see no change in the behaviour in these bureaucrats or changes in laws.

All your advice here in the forum is great. But it does not progress on the directed path.. as we plan to beat the system (bureaucracy and un-official orders) as individuals and with no legal support to back up when in need.

If a country like America with strong judiciary and 2nd Amendments for right to bear arms.. and the federal govt plan to make stricter gun laws. Do a person think we can fight the system individually? All that your AL authority need is a red/green pen to dismiss you case in a minute to say not recommended for whatever the reason. And if you still persist in your application process taking legal action, you may end up with some legal trouble as GBM stated.

I am a Pro-Gunner. My intention here is to educate on the holistic picture for obtaining an AL.