What do you chaps think of the new Mahindra Bolero?

[Sujay]

A second hand Scorp is probably what I would end up getting. If so, I will be changing the brakes. A friend, the chap who owns the Mahindra dealership, did that on his, so it is possible. I need to find out the price though.

Mack The Knife

Mack The Knife,

Avoid making that choice at all costs. The problem lies not in its brakes, rather in its handling. Also at high speed , steering movements result in
front wheels loosing contact with road. This was told to me by the owner while driving when I asked him ' what was that' ? If true ; it can result in a life threatning situation even for a careful driver.

Give the Safari a serious thought before you decide.

[Mack The Knife]

If your budget is less than 8 lakhs then you can rule this out.Sell for about 9-10 lakhs.

That's out then. Thanks.

Normal tyres and the drive was of about 1hr15 min.Maybe something wrong with that vehicle if you have not encountered this problem with other vehicles.

Only been in one Bolero. Hopefully your experience was the exception.

Went as a passenger in somebodies Fusion to a village.Was not a very comfortable drive,the broken roads did not help one bit.

One can hardly expect a comfortable ride over broken roads....not at this price bracket at least.

How about the TATA Pickup?

To double as a city 'car' most of the time? You must be joking.

Fiat's service seems to have improved after its tie up with TATA.

Early days yet so wouldn't touch them.

Maruti Baleno Altura??

Ground clearance?

Had travelled in a TATA Indica....

Ground Clearance is a definite problem with this car. Attractively priced though.

Mack The Knife

[Mack The Knife]

Avoid making that choice at all costs. The problem lies not in its brakes, rather in its handling. Also at high speed , steering movements result in front wheels loosing contact with road. This was told to me by the owner while driving when I asked him ' what was that' ? If true ; it can result in a life threatning situation even for a careful driver.

There seem to be a lot of similar comments, which makes me wonder just how fast do you guys go? When not using my 800, I mostly travel outdoors in a Scorp (as a passenger) and we usually do between 100 and 120 kmph and have never encountered any problems with brakes or handling. This includes the version just before the CRDE one and the first CRDE version. As a rule I do not drive anybody elses car but will make an exception and take my friend's for a real highway-outdoor test drive.

Give the Safari a serious thought before you decide.

I have no objection to one if I can get a good second hand version.

Mack The Knife

[Mack The Knife]

Moving on to the more practical aspects of owning an off road vehicle. Both the Bolero and Scorpio are under powered and have inadequate torque for any kind of serious off road use. The 4-Wheeler's Bible, Jim Allen's invaluable reference book for off-road technique, tools and specs, gives this summary of how to evaluate how much torque you need: "How much is adequate? It's all related to engine torque versus the weight of the vehicle. If you take the rated engine torque and divide it into the curb weight, you will get the torque-to-weight ratio. Anything much over 20:1 is generally inadequate. The upper teens are acceptable, the middle teens are good, the lower teens are great, and under 10:1 is probably overkill."

Abhijeet, the Fusion has a max. torque of 146 Nm and a kerb weight of 1134 kgs.

Do I convert the Nm figure for torque into something else or is it a straight division? What is the torque to weight ratio for the Fusion?

Thanks.

Mack The Knife

[mundaire]

Jim Allen's in "The 4-Wheeler's Bible" was not particularly big on metric measurements!

You will need to convert Nm into foot-pounds (divide by 1.356) and Kgs in Pounds (divide by 0.4535924).

The figures you will get are - 107.67 ft-lbs and 2,500.04 lbs - giving us a torque to weight ratio of 23.22:1.

Of course, other factors in the drivetrain of the vehicle should be also taken into account, including the transfer case (there is none in this case as it is not a 4x4 vehicle), low-geared axles(again not an option here), and tires chosen to provide traction (probably the most important choice you will make while preparing it for any kind of off-road use), are designed specifically to translate that torque effectively into slow forward progress.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Mack The Knife]

Thanks, Abhijeet.

As you know, this is primarily going to be an urban vehicle which will be used on mud roads (not sand) about four to six days in a month. Are there any particular tyres I could use that would strike a compromise between tarmac and mud road use?

They are currently shod with Bridgestone 195/60 R15 (Tubeless).

A friend visited a couple of second hand dealerships this morning on my behalf. 2004 Scorps with 66,000 to 89,000 kms on the clock are going for 7.2 lakhs upwards. Not sure if this price is indicative of all dealer sold second hand Scorps though.

Any truth in the rumour that the brakes on the Safari, Dicor included, are piss poor when trying to stop from speeds in excess of a ton?

Mack The Knife

[Mack The Knife]

Abhijeet,

Wanted to see the torque to kerb weight ratio for the Gypsy and got

28.58 : 1 for the soft top and 30.18 : 1 for the hard top.

Max. Torque: 103 Nm / 75.97 ft.lbs.

Kerb Wt.: 985 kgs / 2171.52 lbs. (Soft top)
1040 kgs / 2292.77 lbs. (Hard top)

Considering what you had quoted from Allen's book I thought the conversion factor for Nm to Ft. Lbs. was wrong but that wasn't the case.

So the Fusion has a better torque to kerb weight ratio than the Gypsy but looses out on..... "Of course, other factors in the drivetrain of the vehicle should be also taken into account, including the transfer case (there is none in this case as it is not a 4x4 vehicle), low-geared axles(again not an option here), and tires chosen to provide traction (probably the most important choice you will make while preparing it for any kind of off-road use), are designed specifically to translate that torque effectively into slow forward progress."

I cannot do anything about the first two but I wonder if I could get decent tires that would strike a good compromise between asphalt and mud surfaces. Any pointers regarding this, chaps?

Mack The Knife

P.S.: What are the attributes of a good mud tyre?

[Sakobav]

Mack The Knife

Good mud tyres http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbullet ... 142&page=2

check this forum, also http://www.consumersearch.com/www/autom ... index.html

Not sure which of tires are available in India. Unless you drive in mud/slush any tires should be fine. Our 800 could haul us over bunds and muddy tracks on to our farm next to river.

all the best so its Scorpio then?

[sat]

Mack The Knife,

I have been using a toyota qualis for drives in the countryside close to home, I often go onto the dirt track too. We had some guest in from France, they remarked, 'comfortable jeep'.

A friend of mine is planning to buy a 2nd hand Qualis & make it a soft top version for his jeep/village safaris.

I would not touch any of the TATA vehicles, I like the handling of the fiat Adventure but I would not consider this car.

Going to have a look at a 1970 model Kaiser jeep tomorrow, the owner want 1.25L, hope its in decent condition.. just heard it might be fitted with a DI engine

sat

[Mack The Knife]

so its Scorpio then?

Not at the sort of second hand prices I mentioned yesterday.

Many thanks for the links.

Mack The Knife

[Mack The Knife]

I have been using a toyota qualis for drives in the countryside close to home, I often go onto the dirt track too. We had some guest in from France, they remarked, 'comfortable jeep'.

Never noticed any ground clearance issues in your area. Those thorns are another matter though.

Don't quite get the bit about, "I often go onto the dirt track too." I thought that was all there was...

[mundaire]

As you know, this is primarily going to be an urban vehicle which will be used on mud roads (not sand) about four to six days in a month. Are there any particular tyres I could use that would strike a compromise between tarmac and mud road use?

Most road (tyre) tread patterns are usually suitable for use on sand - but you will get the best performance in sand using a straight sipes tread pattern like that used in aeroplane tyres. However, for use in mud you need a "chunky" tread pattern - to know what I mean by "chunky" think tractor rear tyres, Jeep M-S (mud-snow) tyres and you will get the picture! Of course using such tyres on surfaced roads will wear them out really quick, plus they wont give you good traction on wet, slippery roads.

There are compromise tyres available as well that try to combine road and mud capability - they will have a "chunky" tread on the outside, with a more "road-like" tread in the centre, an example of this tread pattern are the cross ply tyres that come as standard fitment on Gypsys. From personal experience I can tell you that this compromise is simply useless as (like all compromises) it fails on both counts - neither does it perform well on surfaced roads NOR in mud But from what I can make out, you are thinking more in terms of dirt tracks and not in terms of going over plowed fields, irrigation ditches and such like.

The Fusion seems to have 15 inch wheels, as does the Gypsy... hmm not sure but you can check if some of the tyres meant for the Gypsy will fit the Fusion... Also, while making a choice do keep in mind the fact that while tubeless tyres are less prone to flats, and even when they do get a flat, they seldom "blow out" and are therefore safer as well - IF you ever get a roadside puncture chappie to use his tyre irons to pry out the tyre from the rim (to fix the flat), he will most certainly destroy the seal and in effect will convert them from tubeless into tube tyres So tubeless might not be a good choice unless you plan on equipping yourself with a quick-fix tubeless puncture repair kit - to fix things till you get back to civilization.

Hope this helps.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[mundaire]

Wanted to see the torque to kerb weight ratio for the Gypsy and got

28.58 : 1 for the soft top and 30.18 : 1 for the hard top.

Max. Torque: 103 Nm / 75.97 ft.lbs.

Kerb Wt.: 985 kgs / 2171.52 lbs. (Soft top)
1040 kgs / 2292.77 lbs. (Hard top)

Unfortunately very few of the 4x4s sold in India match up to the 20:1 ratio. AFAIK exceptions are -

1. The Jonga (a mid-sixties Nissan Patrol) which has a max torque of 26.9 mkg = 263.889 Nm (1 mkg = 9.81 Nm) = 194.61 ft-lb and weight of 1565kg/ 3450 lb giving a nice torque to weight ratio of 17.73. This combined with the fact that the first (crawler) gear is so low that you could probably pull a loaded truck using a tow rope! Of course its thirsty 6 cylinder, 3956cc petrol engine has meant that it has few takers at the military surplus auctions! I would seriously not mind getting my hands on one of these

2. The CJ3B Jeep - This one just scrapes through with its Willys Hurricane (petrol) engine. Dividing the Hurricane's max 111 ft-lbs of torque into it's curb weight of 2243 lbs, gives us a result of 20.21:1.

There are of course other more contemporary SUVs being sold here now and some of them might pass muster as well. For example, the Honda CRV 3 litre V6 should pass quite easily...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Mack The Knife]

But from what I can make out, you are thinking more in terms of dirt tracks and not in terms of going over plowed fields, irrigation ditches and such like.

That is correct or rather I hope to keep it that way.

Have done the above after the harvest when the ground is quite hard and have even forded a river when the water was low in a 800. I guess ignorance can be bliss....

If I go for the Fusion, I will try it out with the factory fitted tyres first. Hopefully, that should suffice. Needless to say, a tubeless tyre puncture repair kit would always be on board.

Thanks for the tips and explanations, it's been a great help.

Mack The Knife

[Mack The Knife]

Posting a pic of monty3006's Bolero as per his request.



Mack The Knife