SMLE .303, 7.62 & .410

[mundaire]

What does smle stand for I am really duh on this.

SMLE stands for Small Magazine Lee Enfield, it's the correct name for the 303 rifles that were in use by the British & many commonwealth militaries. .303 British only refers to the cartridge and not the actual rifle, though in India 303 is used as the de facto name for the SMLE, in spite of the fact that later models (mid sixties onward) were chambered for the 7.62 NATO cartridge. The change in the cartridge was made as the Indian army had decided to switch to the FN FAL rifles (called the SLR in India) and they needed a transitional weapon while all units were converted to this new rifle.

There are also some (rare) examples of the SMLE chambered for the .410 shotgun cartridge. These were issued to the constabulary pre-independance, as the Brits were not entirely willing to issue Indian cops with a proper rifle. This I would imagine as the loyality of the constabulary was considered suspect, due to the freedom movement sweeping across India at the time. Unfortunately for us this has resulted in the .410 to continue to be classified as a prohibited bore in India!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[dev]

Thanks for explaining this to me, cause some yanks wrote about the QB78 action being similar to that of the Indian 303 smle. So if thses 303 's are actually 7.62 as one of my friends had claimed is this the one they export as the Ishapore 308 to the USA?

It really would be nice to get one of thses old faithfuls on a license. But hopefully next week I shall make belief with my air gun.

Regards,

Dev

P.S. how about some of us meeting for a tankard or so this weekend?

[mundaire]

So if thses 303 's are actually 7.62 as one of my friends had claimed is this the one they export as the Ishapore 308 to the USA?

AFAIK both the .303 british as well as the 7.62 variants are in service with various police forces across India. You can make out the difference between the two quite easily by observing the magazine. the 7.62 has a more "boxy" magazine - you'll know what I mean if you ever see two of these guns kept side by side.

P.S. how about some of us meeting for a tankard or so this weekend?

Sure, let me put up a post on the "Announcement" section for an offline "Delhi Meet"

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[eljefe]

Abhijeet,
That 410 conversion of the SMLE is again a terrible abortion-a lead ball seated on a cut down 303 case! ok accuracy at 50m, may even land in the 1x1 target..
Denied us citizenery a chance to own a legitimate weapon-I dont think the Govt 410 musket, as the nomenclature goes, can chamber a 410 shotgun cartridge?
Best
Axx

[mundaire]

That 410 conversion of the SMLE is again a terrible abortion-a lead ball seated on a cut down 303 case! ok accuracy at 50m, may even land in the 1x1 target..
Denied us citizenery a chance to own a legitimate weapon-I dont think the Govt 410 musket, as the nomenclature goes, can chamber a 410 shotgun cartridge?

Well, I have frankly never come across one in real life - just read about the fact that these conversions existed. If the 410 cartridge for this gun is different from the .410 shotgun cartridge then it would seem that there is no basis whatsoever for the .410 shotgun cart. to be on the Prohibited Bore list! If there is any reference source that can validate this information, do let me know - my maternal uncle has a (walking) stick gun (chambered for .410) which has been languishing in a Haryana Police "Malkhana" for decades now...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[eljefe]

penpusher,
Guess we need help from you on this one...
best
Axx

[penpusher]

Have not seen the conversion to 410 bore, ever. Will check up. May take some time though. I do think that the converted rifle is a single shot.

Abhijeet

If your uncle is interested in retaining the walking stick ( stick guns are banned,I think, regardless of the bore) he can obtain permission from the licensing authority to get the gun checked at the Kolkata IOF factory, to find out if it is PB or NPB weapon.Would entail a lot of hassle though.

Take care,
penpusher

[mehulkamdar]

This is getting OT but in a pleasant way - I saw Ischapore 410 Enfield single shot guns on sale on Gunbroker some time ago. I shall post a link if any comes up on sale. They are collector pieces over here because of their rarity. Grumpy could tell us if any have been made in the UK - I am sure they were as it is a British design that was manufactured in India anyway, even though the inventor, James Paris Lee, was American.

[mundaire]

This is getting OT but in a pleasant way

Have split this from the original thread, creating a separate thread for the SMLE.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[eljefe]

Mehul/Abhijeet/penpusher
Yes, I have handled and fired the 410 smle musket at the old ksra range in bangalore.
It was a single shot, rifled barrel.
cartridge was as described before.definitely not a shotgun cartridge
If this holds good, I think, we could eventually start work towards getting the 41/ 410 cal out of the PB list?
More power to our collective elbows (and other sundry parts too )
Best
Axx

[penpusher]

Here are some links for info on the .410 SMLE

http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/ri6.htm

http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/ri6a.htm

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=145096

Here is one for sale

http://www.valleyguns.com/listings/deta ... =808094834

Asif wrote

It was a single shot, rifled barrel

Take care,
penpusher

[eljefe]

Thanks penpusher,
The link quotes-
" The chamber, as stated, was designed to fit the British .410 shell unlike the standard 3-inch .410 chamber. Shells for this rifle would have to be purchased in .410 British or fire-formed .303 cases would have to be used "
Dim memory did serve me right about the brass cases!
How does this affect a regular 410 shotgun useage and legality?
This is a custom made 410 caliber, on the basis of which all .41 calibers are banned for civilian use?
A cause worth taking up, gentlemen?
Riot guns seemed to be made for a gentler set of rioters those days... No one would consider it worth using now a days in a mob/ riot situation, except on oneself!
Best
Axx

[Grumpy]

I`ve never even heard of the `British` .410 shell - British India seems more likely. Sounds an absolute abortion anyway. Seen plenty of `Smellies` converted to .410 Smoothbore shotgun - which is pretty pointless.
So what are these .41/.410 calibres you want Asif ? The .410 shotgun is a runt - only useful for short range ratting and the .41 mag was dropped by S&W some time ago. If you`re going to campaign for something surely your efforts should be engaged in something worthwhile ?
- Grumpy by name, grumpy by nature

[Grumpy]

On the subject of SMLEs: There`s a Lee Speeed .303 coming up for auction tomorrow which looks like it might be rather nice and Holts have a .375 Lee Speed in their auction tomorrow. That`s the Continental 9.5mm, not a .375 H&H.......which would be a bit pokey for a Lee Speed to handle.

[mundaire]

Finally got around to seeing Onkara today and since this thread was actually split from "the onkara effect" thread (in the General ramblings forum) - I thought it might be pertinent to point out that the rifle used by "Langda Tyagi" in the movie is indeed a Ishapore SMLE in 7.62 NATO. The magazine shape is a dead give away... Am attaching relevant pictures of both the SMLE in .303 & 7.62 for everyones benefit.



Ishapore SMLE in 7.62 NATO - note the "boxier" shape of this magazine in comparison to the one chambered for .303 British


SMLE in .303 British - Note the shape of the magazine



There are other less obvious differences - but the magazine shape is usually the best way to spot the two different rifle chamberings.

Cheers!
Abhijeet