Is a weapon really required for self protection in India?

[aadhaulya]

I think keeping a firearm for protection is a practical choice. The confidence it gives for the safety of the family is great. There are many places in this fair country of ours that make keeping a firearm handy desirable. Not a case of looking for a nail to hammer. Rather, it is a case of keeping an insurance just in case.

Vikram, I totally agree with you. It sure gives one a lot of confidence. One is prepared for the worst, also when someone like me also likes to carry.

I have never faced a situation like that when I need to mess up with some burgler or thief. I carry a folding knife and gun for my outdoors but really never had the chance to use them.

One more thing I want to bring to your notice that self defence weapons are carried by the people who wish to carry them.

Harshit, Let me rephrase my original question as follows

Has any one, or some one known to you, faced a situation where there was an urgent requirement to be armed?? By 'urgent' I mean that there was no time to dial 100 as normally in Delhi cops reach the spot in less than 15 to 20 minutes.


Regards

Atul

[essdee1972]

Atul, to answer, once I was being chauffeured on a state highway in Maharashtra. The chauffeur overtook 3 guys on bikes, who seemed keen on hogging the road, with a few loud honks. Those guys started after us. 5 of them, 3 bikes. Shouting to us to stop, with lots of colourful language thrown in. Luckily for me, the guy was great at high speeds - could make my old Tata Indigo dance a samba. And also luckily, none of the bikes were Hayabusas or similar, and we didn't run into traffic, where bikes are always at an advantage.

If we had been caught, I am rather sure I would have needed a gun, to exhibit if not to use. I started keeping pepper sprays, sjambok, and PVC-pipe-filled-with-spent-pellets in the car only after this incident.

And on a state highway, probably God wouldn't be able to say when the cops would turn up.

[aadhaulya]

Atul, to answer, once I was being chauffeured on a state highway in Maharashtra. The chauffeur overtook 3 guys on bikes, who seemed keen on hogging the road, with a few loud honks. Those guys started after us. 5 of them, 3 bikes. Shouting to us to stop, with lots of colourful language thrown in. Luckily for me, the guy was great at high speeds - could make my old Tata Indigo dance a samba. And also luckily, none of the bikes were Hayabusas or similar, and we didn't run into traffic, where bikes are always at an advantage.

If we had been caught, I am rather sure I would have needed a gun, to exhibit if not to use. I started keeping pepper sprays, sjambok, and PVC-pipe-filled-with-spent-pellets in the car only after this incident.

And on a state highway, probably God wouldn't be able to say when the cops would turn up.

One of my friends also got kidnapped on a state highway in Haryana. They started discussing among themselves if they should kill him. Finally they took his mobile and wallet after driving around for a few hours and threw him out of the car and vanished with his car.
I am sure that it must have been a scary experience for both of you and felt the need of a weapon at that time. But nothing like this has been observed within the city.

Regards

Atul

[SMJ]

Hello Mr Atul- i guess your merely seeking opinion's from fellow IFG'ians.
To answer the subject line and point one - yes I believe with changing mind sets, rising crimes, people getting violent at the drop of a hat and criminals being accorded political patronage I DO believe a weapon is now necessary for self protection in India. However I am sure all will agree that it requires very responsible use.
As some of the gentlemen have pointed out that if one can get out of a situation without the use of a weapon either using your feet to run if necessary or by using the best weapon of all - a calm mind one should of course Just my two bits worth....
Regarding points 2 and 3 - I do not of anyone else who carries weapons- a lot of my friends are averse to guns or knives and think I am a bit of my rocker in this regard

[aadhaulya]

Dear SMJ,

You are absolutely correct that I am merely seeking an opinion.
I believe that in Big Metro cities it is not required rather I have not come across any one who needed a weapon when in the city.
Now I feel that some people do carry some sort of weapon other than guns. I always carry a gun not because I felt the need for it till now but because I like the feel of the gun besides it gives additional confidence, as at this age I can't run away from danger very fast or for that matter fast also.

Regards

Atul

[SMJ]

Hi Mr Atul, and hope you never have to either but I guess as one of the gentleman in this forums's signature states "its better to have one and not need one than to need one and not have one"
I love guns purely from a hunting perspective i.e. to say my love for rifles and shotguns is more Corbett and Anderson inspired rather than self defense but I agree it is important to be armed if one can. Just to clarify, I am aware hunting is banned and I am averse to shooting even rats! I do not currently own firearms but like a lot of people here I hope to soon.
You are correct when you say that some people do carry some sort of "weapon" with them - personally I admit to having a baseball bat in my car but fortunately for me I have also never felt the need to use it and hope I never have to either!

[Chandan22]

Hello,

I have a thought... I carry my gun because I like to, because it makes me feel safe and I would be remiss if I didn't admit that there is a secret thrill and macho feel that one gets. However, I also realise that some of the reasons are not neccessarily the right ones. There are instances when there is this fantasy of pulling out the gun to resolve something exceptionally minor. That sense of ultimate power a gun bestows does have a corrupting influence. And so yes, there are times when I'm afraid I'm not doing the right thing by carrying.

However, the world is messing up. Toddlers being raped, people being bludgeoned to death, violence on something so irrelevant as parking... I'm not insane if I want to protect myself from this. And having a gun is the surest protection from such eventualities.

The caveat here remains whether I will use it, and if I use it, or even brandish it, will I be legally in the right? I have been shown an incident in Delhi where a fight outside a bar took a dangerous turn when one person took out a knife and would have stabbed someone. Another person then pulled out his gun and only aimed it at the knife wielder, asking him to desist. This stopped the fight. However, the person pulling out the gun is also being prosecuted for using a deadly weapon and disproportionate force. Despite the fact that he never fired the gun !! So our laws and justifiable use are random, unpredictable and not always dependable.

So in a nutshell, I'm not sure if I should carry, or whether I need to carry, but I prefer to carry and probably there may come a time in my life when this carrying might save my life.. or if I'm unlucky put me in more trouble than I can handle. Till then, I'll go with the passion angle and say I like carrying it and its a hobby.

~C

[aadhaulya]

Hello,

I have a thought... I carry my gun because I like to, because it makes me feel safe and I would be remiss if I didn't admit that there is a secret thrill and macho feel that one gets. However, I also realise that some of the reasons are not neccessarily the right ones. There are instances when there is this fantasy of pulling out the gun to resolve something exceptionally minor. That sense of ultimate power a gun bestows does have a corrupting influence. And so yes, there are times when I'm afraid I'm not doing the right thing by carrying.

However, the world is messing up. Toddlers being raped, people being bludgeoned to death, violence on something so irrelevant as parking... I'm not insane if I want to protect myself from this. And having a gun is the surest protection from such eventualities.

The caveat here remains whether I will use it, and if I use it, or even brandish it, will I be legally in the right? I have been shown an incident in Delhi where a fight outside a bar took a dangerous turn when one person took out a knife and would have stabbed someone. Another person then pulled out his gun and only aimed it at the knife wielder, asking him to desist. This stopped the fight. However, the person pulling out the gun is also being prosecuted for using a deadly weapon and disproportionate force. Despite the fact that he never fired the gun !! So our laws and justifiable use are random, unpredictable and not always dependable.

So in a nutshell, I'm not sure if I should carry, or whether I need to carry, but I prefer to carry and probably there may come a time in my life when this carrying might save my life.. or if I'm unlucky put me in more trouble than I can handle. Till then, I'll go with the passion angle and say I like carrying it and its a hobby.

~C

Chandan,

The precise reason that I carry a gun (Love the feel of the gun, besides adding confidence). But drawing it may account to threatening with a deadly weapon. And you would get into unnecessary hassles that are difficult and time consuming to sort out.
Again, this is also the reason I carry it openly, I do not have to draw it to let the other person know that I am armed.

Regards

Atul

[Mihir]

I believe carrying a weapon is necessary with the rising crime. I do carry a cold steel XL ESPADA in my laptop bag which always go with me everywhere.the sheer size of the knife will act as a deterrent to conflict I believe.

Sadly none of the people I know carry any sort of weapon with them.

[chicky]

Dear Aadhaulya,

Very valid point and I too carry my revolver , sometimes and at some places. However the big question is , how many of us , baring a few , will have the presence of mind and the the guts to open fire when the time comes. My uncle died in the hands of rioters, with his double barrel barely a few feet from him, in an almirah...he didn't have the opportunity to use it or shall I say "presence of mind".
In lighter vein ....when Banta Singh's house got burgled, the thiefs took away everything but for the revolver the he had kept under his pillow. When Santa asked him why didn't he use it...Banta said they would have taken that too...thus he lay very still , faking sleep while the thiefs were looting.
But having said that, I do agree, in some places and States in India, it is almost essential to have and carry arms...as a deterrent.

Best regards,

Chicky

[goodboy_mentor]

My uncle died in the hands of rioters, with his double barrel barely a few feet from him, in an almirah...he didn't have the opportunity to use it or shall I say "presence of mind".

Would not comment about why your uncle was unable to use the gun since I do not know exactly what happened or what his thoughts were. Some people have a habit to keep the main door open or unlocked during day time. Sometimes the doors or windows are too weak to even withstand a few kicks or force of few attackers. Most probably the attackers were suddenly able to barge in even before he could realize what was happening.

Why some people are unable to react to sudden violence? Most probable reasons I can think of -

1) Too much or unreasonable trust in the government or police.
2) false sense of security, a thinking that such an "inhuman" act is not possible or a thought that the attackers will have "mercy"
3) taken by surprise, not mentally or physically prepared. Unable to take a decision that the final moment has arrived and before dying kill as many attackers as possible
4) inadequate weapons or ammunition with all family members to stand their ground till last breath
5) kind of societal Stockholm syndrome towards attackers or oppressors. Those who are not aware of what societal Stockholm syndrome is, just search the internet for "societal Stockholm syndrome"

[woodedflood]

Firstly, yes. If all the criminals have them, the military has them, the police has them, why not the civillian?
Why am I the only person deprived of access to the best possible way of defending myself? More importantly, why wouldn't I choose the best possible way of defending myself?

Rather I would re-frame the question.
1. Is a gun, knife or any other weapon required for self protection in Urban India, Probably barring a few cities?

Required? Do you require the locks on your doors? Do you even really require a door?
The Vikings, they were always able to carry a spear. They said "keep your spear within your reach cause you don't know what's beyond the firelight". And in the medieval times, a spear was the best possible tool that they could own, for their own protection, as well as to put food on the table.
In the Urban Environment, you do not strictly require a weapon for hunting.
Coming to your original question though, no you do not require a gun for defending yourself; you could strangle somebody with a sock or kill somebody wishing to do you harm, with a pencil, if you're skilled enough.
It's the best form of defense and it is what I would want to have on me personally. (Also, this goes without saying, but be responsible with a firearm).

2. Are there large number of people who do carry weapons, among the people you know??

Not a large number, no. Most women I know carry something for defending themselves though.

3. The people who carry weapons, do they carry concealed or open??

Concealed, always. Open carry if you're in a familiar setting with familiar people and not on public land(be it a knife or a handgun)

As about myself I never move out without a revolver hanging openly on my belt. My reason for open carry being that if a situation arises (only situation I expect is 'Road Rage' case, being the most prominent one in Delhi/ NCR). In this situation the scene doesn't go out of hand if the other person sees you carrying a gun and if you are carrying it concealed you will have to show the gun to keep the situation under control. But that would amount to a threat with a deadly weapon.

Having a dashcam is always useful.
If I was dealing with a delirious road rager, I'd call the police, show him that I'm calling the police, and calculate my next steps based on their reaction.

But I still feel that carrying a gun in Delhi/ NCR is not really required. Also for sure, none of the people I know carry any sort of weapon.

The common man has been castrated into being a tool for the higher uppers and a part of the herd that can't think for themselves; The majority of the people here are a hive-minded bunch that don't have the ability to think for themselves. We have been reduced to the lowest form of human imaginable.
If you believe that you don't need a gun, then don't own a gun. You (and the others of the ignorant herd) will regret your decision at some point, soon enough.


- woodedflood, 2023-10-18

[eljefe]

I had to read your intro to frame a response, woodflood.
No exposure to firearms- no family exposure to firearms- absolutely understood. We, the gunless indians

Your understanding and rant about need for firearms ? Justified.

In my rather ‘puffed up ‘ experience of Delhi NCR- at several levels - victims, perpetrators, Law enforcement-including the alphabet soup agencies:

Delhi is a VERY violence prone city. From dowry deaths to women being forced to aborting the female foetus, a 16 year old evolving tough guy who shot himself in the thigh having a 3AM chai with his cronies, to hardened criminals who shot dead a 70 year old lady in the witness box of a court.

It’s not new, this mindset. The locals went after the fleeing British in 1857, and then against their own countrymen who were fleeing the British when they re occupied the city.

Road rage is mostly because of the ‘mine is bigger than yours ‘ attitude.

Also being the political power centre of the country, it’s over flowing with genuine and wanna-be “tu janta nahin main/mera baap / mera mama kaun hai ? ( chose one or all!) and most times it holds good.

There was a viral video a few years ago,of a politician’s son in a pink suit, waking up the stairs of a 5 star hotel with a .357 pistol(allegedly cost himRs. 50 lacs) to threaten - an unarmed woman. Road rage?? Responsible gun owner behaviour?

Jessica Lal. the Medico who got raped on the bus. Talwar

Gives you an idea ?

Since some animals are more equal than others in Mera Bharat mahan, obviously he didn’t come under the purview of the bare acts of the IPC.

The OP, is trying to find a comparable precedent to justifying his open carry.

He is licenced, most likely under ‘self protection’ and is justified.

All is well until somebody refuses to listen to the warning signs. Usually an armed criminal with his chelas, has an image to live upto , access to illegal guns and ammo , plenty of ammo to practice and most likely, has used it to kill.
Vs the 50 round a year quota of Rs.400 a round legal gun owner ?

So by the time the licenced, open carry chap realises that the ‘open carry’ is not working, things would have gone VERY south.

Or

Licenced person Vs non firearm armed criminal. Shots fired.
DO NOT PASS GO, GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL

(Damn,I never knew playing ‘Monopoly’ in my mis-spent youth would come in handy )

Regardless if an open carry wallah depends on the visual impact to keep him out of trouble, or a CCW who has probably primed himself to USE or NOT USE. It’s a very personal prerogative.

There are people here. who have real life experience of using firearms in non theoretical, non paper target environments. Ideally the wrong opinion types! Because they wouldn’t want to talk about it.

[hornet22]

Taking precautions will go a long way than having a gun and taking unnecessary risks

[GuidedKrinkov]

Road rage is mostly because of the ‘mine is bigger than yours ‘ attitude.

(I'm woodedflood, had to make a new acc. due to the same error again and again and again... I think it was due to TOR usage. No TOR on this acc.) Please read the post script, moderator

I actually completely agree with you. I've seen people open carrying (of course at that time I was young and very uninformed), and I know what you mean by not wanting to mess with the guy open carrying.
However, where I live (Maharashtra) the people like putting up a nice and huge tough guy attitude while being wimps inside. Usually, things get diffused quickly, unless, of course, they don't.
The biggest threat you possess in this state is funnily enough a gang of young skinny kids with sharp machetes attacking you due to wounded egos.
Road rage? Usually just a lot of yelling. Maybe the police are called. Insurance? "What's that???". Anyhow, if there's just a lot of yelling going on AND at that moment you decide to flash your sidearm (in a crowded area, which most areas are) you're kinda in a TIGHT spot, hard to recover at that point.

That is why I think that, in this state, C.C'ing is better until you sense a threat to your life, which you WILL, were it to present itself, ever.
Please note "in this state".
Cultures differ.
Usually if you're not a Maharasthrian (you know, like, "from" here) you are at a disadvantage in such situations. They have a surprisingly low tolerance for people who don't speak their language (I can understand it, can't speak it). They REALLY do not like Northeners.

Please refer to my introduction to know where I'm "from", to put into perspective why I believe this.

I know some would like to scream "stop generalizing" but I'm literally just talking about what I've commonly observed. Sorry for going a but off topic.


TLDR; In this state, people usually not as violent, Open carrying will send the wrong message and potentially get you even more trouble than just, trying to sort the situation out first. Based on personal observation and experiences. Although, not saying you should never open carry

About your essentially "you don't have any experience with firearms comment" el jefe, I've seen plenty of Road Rage incidents; I am not COMPLETELY advocating for not open carrying; there are certain people that would get violent if their hair's ruffled and you happened to be 2 feet from them, and at that point you SHOULD tuck your shirt in.
I can think of several such situations where I'd be safer if I had one...

Taking precautions will go a long way than having a gun and taking unnecessary risks

Owning a firearm IS a precaution. And so much more.


- GuidedKrinkov, 2023-10-21 [1]
LEGAL DISCLAIMER



P.S moderator, I still have the password and other details of the woodedflood account, if you need me to confirm my identity or something. I think due to TOR or some IP issues, the "form invalid submit again" error kept popping up. PM me if it's required.