Why Brother TC is a very bad influence here...

[timmy]

TC:

Zulu Dawn is ok. It is the "prequel" to Zulu, having been made about 10 years after Zulu. I did not care for Zulu Dawn so much at first, because it doesn't have the "grand adventure" feel that Zulu does. But, it is more historically correct. But you have set a bug loose on me, so I have an itch to see Zulu Dawn. Again. The home theater pc here was down for while, but I'm getting it sorted out (I wish I'd have gone with a Mac Mini for this ) and it should be ready for tonight.

I love Peter O'Toole and Burt Lancaster is good, but the original Zulu has a very young Michael Caine (I'm a big Michael Caine fan) and a bunch of well known British actors, like Nigel Green and Richard Booth. A big deal with Zulu for me is Jack Hawkins, who is so superb, and the great John Barry music score. The Welsh singing is great, too!

The play between blue collar Stanley Baker and upper class "stiff upper lip" Michael Caine is so much fun!

Paper patched bullets: Here are some of the things I've learned so far: The Mk IV Martini Henry has a larger bore than the earlier marks. None are true .45 caliber, i.e., .458". There are chamber adapters for shooting .45 Colt, but how a .452 bullet would work in a .470 groove diameter barrel beats me. Anyway, the chamber is supposed to have a long leade, maybe 6" or so. So here is how the paper patched bullet business works out for me:

1. It takes extra time to paper patch the bullets.
2. If the barrel has roughness, paper patched bullets may not work so well. Justin says it looks good, but without having my own eyeballs on it, Im unsure whether to commit to paper patched bullets.
3. I worry about loading the things. (More on this in a bit.)

I'm thinking about this bullet:



http://www.castbulletengineering.com.au ... ble-cavity

The .470 diameter should fit quite nicely.

For brass, there are a few sources of custom brass. As I said earlier, the highly regarded Bertram brass (again, like the molds, from Australia) is $141 per 20. There is a company called Magtech that makes 24 gauge shotgun shells, which have the same rim and base as 577/450 and 577 Snider. It isn't much more expensive to spring for Ten X brass, which is the Magtech reformed by a fellow running a small company. Incidentally, Ten X also offers ammo @ $150 for 20!

Looking over the Lee dies again, which are a real bargain (RCBS wants over $400 for a set) I find the Martini Henry gurus saying that the Lee dies work the brass to much by resizing it very small. This causes the brass to be short lived. Since I only have one gun, I think I will just get the bushing neck sizer from CH4D:



http://www.ch4d.com/products/dies/sizing/lbns

This allows sizing the neck to any size I want, as the bushings that do the neck sizing can be obtained in any diameter I want. This die will only work the brass as much as necessary, and it will also, as you can see, decap. CH4D makes great stuff and they also offer a bushing that will fit my Rockchucker press.



My Rockchucker press is older than this one, which has the ability to fit the operating lever for either right or left handed use. (Mine is so old now - over 35 years, that when my grandkids get it, it will be nearly antique! But these things never wear out and it still seems as new to me as when I bought it.) Note that there is a hex headed bushing where the die threads at the top. Dies are 7/8" x 14 tpi thread and the outer threads of the press are 1 1/4" x 12 tpi, which is how the Lee dies are threaded. The CH4D dies are 1" x 14 tpi. CH4D makes a bushing that will work:



http://www.ch4d.com/products/equipment/presses/ptb

I may have to get the Lee set anyway, to use for a seating die. Also, I don't want to use a roll crimp (I believe in taper crimping only to save brass!), so I need to figure out what to do for a taper crimper. I may go CH4D for that, as well. Maybe I should just go with CH4D for everything! Anyway, the whole point is to minimize working the brass.

I'm still going back and forth regarding black powder/pyrodex and smokeless, but at this point, I'm leaning toward smokeless.

I've got to warn you, TC: Martini Henrys are one thing, but when New Mexico gets into your blood, that is more than an addiction! That becomes a very powerful love affair.

[TwoRivers]

Tim: Before you invest in .470 diameter bullets, make sure that the resulting neck diameter of the cartridge won't be too large for the chamber. Soft lead bullets and black powder for proper upset of the bullet base usually work best for these old guns.

[timmy]

Tim: Before you invest in .470 diameter bullets, make sure that the resulting neck diameter of the cartridge won't be too large for the chamber. Soft lead bullets and black powder for proper upset of the bullet base usually work best for these old guns.

Walt, yep! I'm not going to budge on the purchasing end of things until I can do some measuring, for sure! It looks like a chamber cast will be in order first.

I have been having a lot of fun "window shopping," though. Pretty soon, I'll be itching to get my hands on it!

[xl_target]

Just read an article on this subject.

A recent revelation of the sale of Nepal’s 200-year-old weapons to an American antique dealer has sparked a debate in Nepal as well as in the Nepali Diaspora. I have read some of the emotionally-charged postings. There is nothing wrong with being patriotic and I respect those individuals who express love for their country in a positive way. However, if we examine the sale of the antiquated weapons to the American dealer objectively we will realize that we may have overreacted to an issue that really has not much merit.
Symbolically, these weapons stand for destruction. They are not objects of art that the maker took his time, energy and imagination to make. Nor are they the products of Nepalis whether of the past or the present. They do not reflect cultural, religious or even philosophical aspects of Nepal. Except for the Khukuris, Bhalas, Talwars, Khundas, Chakkus and Kardas, Nepalis never made guns or cannons. They were produced by Europeans as weapons of oppression, and were used and are still being used for killing. And Nepal in the last decade has seen much of that in the name of “Revolution of the People.”
What is the justification for taking national pride in weapons? The only positive value I see is that many of our brave Gorkha brothers—even using these antiquated weapons in World Wars I and II against would-be imperialists and oppressors—were able to shine, earning the title of brave race. As a result, many have been decorated with the highest orders of bravery. That is our only history associated with these weapons. Beyond that, they are simply weapons of destruction no matter who has used them against whom.
Losing a cache of rusting weapons does not equate to losing our rich cultural heritage as has been made out to be by the media. Some have even used the term “archaeological” to refer to these weapons. But that simply is not true because they were not artifacts dug from the ground like the ancient potteries, sculptures, remains of buildings and even murals now being excavated from various parts of Nepal.
Christian Cranmer, the American antique dealer who negotiated the sale of the Nepali arsenal with the help of an Indian broker, wrote in American Rifleman that the weapons were crammed in a room decorated with exotic murals of Lagan Silekhana. However, with 200 years of neglect, it should be pointed out that the weapons were in “absolutely filthy” condition.
In the opinion of Major General Pradip Pratap Bam Malla, “There was no proper way to save those ancient weapons from water, dust and heat, and their value was declining.” No matter who writes, it is true that the weapons were stored in a pathetic way, leading to decay. After all, they were made of metal, and one does not have to be a metallurgist to know that cold, dampness and dust are metal’s enemies.
I am reminded of a Nepali proverb: “Mal payara chal napaune.”
Where were the so- called historians, archeologists and protectors of Nepal’s heritage while these historic weapons rusted away locked in a dungeon? I concur with Bhusan Dahal’s comments: “the sale of antique weaponry at the price of scrap metal threatens to wipe [out] a portion of history. The antiques were directly related to the history of Nepal and it is our duty to inform the people about how they were undermined and traded to foreigners.” But why has nobody done anything to preserve the arsenal appropriately let alone prevent their sale on the first place?
The weapons include 50,000 guns, 180 bronze cannons, innumerable khukris, bayonets, musket flints and musket balls. If I understand the situation correctly, 146 cannons and an almost equal number of artillery carriages were scheduled to be smelted by the government of Nepal itself. If that was their imminent fate, what is wrong with an American antique collector saving them from destruction?
I sincerely hope that the weapons that have been purchased will be displayed in a dignified way. In the catalogue the dealer has acknowledged the source and the history of the weapons, tracing their origins back to Nepal. If we are history loving people, we should demand that our government keep a few samples of each of the weapons for display in the museum for the purpose of preserving Nepal’s history. From the interview of Nepal’s high ranking military officers, it is evident that 5% of the weapons have been retained. So contrary to the views circulated in the media, we have not really lost all of Nepal’s history. These weapons destined for melting would at least be restored and given proper care—albeit in a foreign land. They would not be piled up in a dungeon as they had previously been in Lagan Silekhana.
I am against reclaiming the weapons as some have suggested if there is no assurance from the present Nepali government that they would be properly restored and displayed in the museum for the public to learn their history. Do we really want to subject them again to the same conditions as they have been? I don’t think any sensible Nepali would want that. My only regret is that our government sold the weapons for a pittance. Had they opened the sale to antique collectors of the world, they could have received a price ten times higher than they did. What a pity!
Dr. Dwarika Nath Dhungel distributed a petition demanding the return of the sold weapons to Nepal. In my humble opinion, this is not the right course to take because the sale appears to be legitimate, contracted in transparently between the two consenting parties. In other words, the weapons were not stolen, although it is certainly true that the Nepalis were cheated by a cunning American antique dealer. But Christian Cranmer does have a bill of sale bearing the Nepali government’s official seal. So we cannot take him to the International Court to try him for stealing. The most we can do is accuse him of defrauding by not paying a fair price for the weapons in question. Being an antique weapons dealer, he knew well their actual value; but he did not pay the fair price. In other words, he took advantage of unwary Nepalis who knew little about the value of the antique weapons. I would be inclined to sign a petition that demands a huge restitution rather than the return of the weapons. This should make Cranmer feel guilty of the deal he struck with a desperate government that needed fast cash.

http://www.telegraphnepal.com/views/201 ... ls-history

Apparently there is a drive to get the weapons back and or/demand restitution from the buyer.
1. So even though the Govt of Nepal had them for a couple of centuries, they didn't realize the value? Someone else bought them and invested a considerable amount of time, money, the procuring of import and export permits, shipping charges and energy into the project and will now retail them at a profit? Umm..., that is called "business", my friends. Only a communist would call that "robbery". Sitting locked up in the armories in Nepal, they had no value (zip, zero, nada).
2. The Govt. of Nepal was apparently not willing to distribute them to their own citizens but they were willing to let the weapons slowly rot away to nothing. There are not many countries in the world where the government will allow you to retail these kinds of weapons in large quantities, in fact there is probably only one that will legally allow you to import and sell these on the open market in the quantities that these were purchased in.
3. I've seen some of the videos, these weapons were filthy, rusting, rotting and totally neglected. It take a huge amount of time, money and effort to bring them up to a condition where they were saleable. Apparently the Government of Nepal was not willing to make the effort. So what is wrong with someone else doing it and making a buck in the process?
4. At least now, in the hands of collectors, these beautiful, historic rifles will be cherished, stored properly and cared for with the dignity that they deserve. A much better fate than the 200 years of neglect that they encountered in Nepal

If you still think that there is something wrong with a businessman being paid for this efforts, you need to get out of academia or government service, get a real job and study how business is conducted in the rest of the world.

[timmy]

Interesting, XL.

Here are some points that I'd like to make:

1. I understand Cranmer paid $5 million USD for the stash he got from Nepal. Once he's all done selling everything, he stands to get $12 million USD. That's a net of $7 million USD. I have no idea how much it has cost him to pack and ship 41 containers of guns and knives to Kolkata, and then have them shipped to the USA, and get them to New Jersey. I can only imagine how much New Jersey is going to charge him -- that won't be cheap, that's for sure. Then, he has to pay to store them and every day they sit on his shelf, the money he paid must be considered against if he had invested it in something else -- the cost of money. The space they take up requires property taxes and all sorts of other expenses. Then, there's paying employees and advertising. By the time he gets finished, he will have earned the money he made with his time and trouble, I think.

2. The author of the article says: "Symbolically, these weapons stand for destruction. They are not objects of art that the maker took his time, energy and imagination to make. Nor are they the products of Nepalis whether of the past or the present. They do not reflect cultural, religious or even philosophical aspects of Nepal. Except for the Khukuris, Bhalas, Talwars, Khundas, Chakkus and Kardas, Nepalis never made guns or cannons. They were produced by Europeans as weapons of oppression, and were used and are still being used for killing." I see some things to criticize here: First of all, destruction does form an active element in the human condition. Second of all, while they were intended for a destructive, though defensive purpose, they aren't going to be used for that purpose by collectors. Third of all, the author is a little off-base in judging what constitutes "art" for everyone: Maybe according to his own ideas, the guns and knives are not art, but why does he assume the mantle to speak for all. Finally, the Gahendra Rifles WERE most certainly made in Nepal. When he makes such a large error in what he says is not Nepali, how can one take him seriously?

3. As the author does point out, historical elements of this stash were retained.

4. What would Nepal have done with 50,000 rifles? Distribute them to the populace? Melt them down? Where else would they have gotten $5 million USD for them? There aren't too many other countries in the world with enough collectors with enough cash to buy 50,000 rifles, after all. The fact is, no matter what deal occurs, there are always going to be a group of cranks who crab about getting too little, and another group of cranks who crab about giving too much. Go to anyplace where buying and selling goes on, and these behaviors can be witnessed.

5. i don't see how one can whine excessively about the price paid for the cannon, when they were going to be melted for scrap value!

I can, on the other hand, understand the lament of a Nepali gun lover who decries the loss of these weapons to another country, if he wanted one (or more). I can also respect the person who wanted to keep them from a cultural perspective, although I question how 50,000 guns would be displayed in a meaningful way.

Like any other debate, there are many opinions, some with substance and some with very little substance.

Thanks for posting this, XL!

[essdee1972]

Reminds me of how we (Indians) go all out crazy when someone, somewhere auctions Mahatma Gandhi's glasses or shoes or something. Or anything to do with any national leader/hero. While all the time the statues of the same heroes are used as an open air loo by millions of pigeons!

In my humble opinion, instead of cribbing about this, one needs to see where the money is going. Whether it is being used for the people/country, or to line someone's bank account on the shores of Lake Geneva.

We can buy a pair of glasses used by Gandhiji for a million or so USD, but using those $$ for the poor of the country might just be a better way to pay homage to him.

[TC]

Timmy my friend,
I visited this precious thread and read all the new posts. But I did not write anything in a week because I have been looking for something and finally managed to get it. Only XL is aware of it because we sometimes share photos and videos of "deep secrets" on our phones. Problem is, I am yet to find the right way to put it up here. And that is something I must and have to do. Its my gift to you and this thread. Gimme a couple of days.

I Will Be Back


TC

[xl_target]

Looking forward to it TC.

[ckkalyan]

I Will Be Back TC

[timmy]

whoa, TC, now you have me going crazy!

I'm looking forward to this.

[brihacharan]

Timmy my friend,
I visited this precious thread and read all the new posts. But I did not write anything in a week because I have been looking for something and finally managed to get it. Only XL knows is aware because we sometimes share photos and videos of "deep secrets" on phone. Problem is, I am yet to find the right way to put it up here. And that is something I must and have to do. Its my gift to you and this thread. Gimme a couple of days.

I Will Be Back!!!

TC

TC!
I Will Be Back!!!
Coming from you...It's a combination of a "Threat" & "Promise" worth waiting for
I can hear the distant "Hoof Beats" already
Briha

[anubhav_rulez]

TC Da's Secret...worth waiting for. Hasta La Vista Baby!

[anubhav_rulez]

T- 156 hours & counting

[TC]

Dear Timmy,
The day I first went through this thread , my heart pounding at the sight of my name on a content so rich in history , I kept telling myself that I had read something about old British rifles in Nepal somewhere in the past. But no matter how much I tried I just couldn't recollect where. Then I started going through my little library of old (some printed before I was born ) and new books. After days of search I found it: An absolutely brilliant article by none other than John Walter published in the 59th annual edition of Gun Digest published exactly ten years ago. Its titled "The Lost Guns Of Nepal"

Now came the challenge. How do I share this treasure, so full of illustrations, old black ad white photos, anecdotes and history. I has chatting over phone on XL one day when I showed him a couple of pages. His immediate suggestion was: "get is scanned".
To get a clear image of the entire page, especially the inside portion close to the binding, I needed a dedicated hand held scanner used for fat books such as this. Even after running around for 10 days I just couldn't locate a handheld scanner in Kolkata. "What the heck," I told myself and this morning and got the 15 pages scanned with an office coipier/ scanner machine. The results aren't close to what I wanted but here it is. In the meantime, try to get a copy of Gun Digest 2005 for your own collection. There are several great pieces; one on the Cummins rifle scope and another on the Ballard single shot rifle, among others.

Here's my small gift to you and the rifle. Enjoy the read if you can make out the sentences. Initially I thought of working on the images on Photoshop but finally decided to leave them as they are. Only cropped the borders.

































TC

[ckkalyan]

Nice find TC and many thanks for taking the trouble to scan the pages!!