Restoring an American classic : The Remington Rolling Block

[TC]

TC: No breech is air tight. And, no air in there to escape, only hot gas. And it is this hot gas under high pressure that presses the case wall against the chamber and prevents the gases from escaping to the rear. While I can make no statement as to the condition of your rifle's chamber, the obvious conclusion would be that these particular cartridges were stored under humid conditions. I am sure they would perform the same way in another rifle. Don't blame your rifle, it's the cartridges. Cheers.

Thanks Two Rivers,
Especially for taking sides - that of my poor little rifle

I guess I have a fairly clear idea about breech, hot gas and chamber pressure and can follow what you are saying. By air passage I simply meant a gap caused by too much polishing of the chamber and through which hot gas might escape under high pressure.

This fresh discussion started with CK''s pertinent question: Why is the sound so low ?
I noticed this at the range itself, so did some of my fellow members. I did not write all that in the range report because the post would only get longer and longer and, possibly boring for many.
I was only trying to find out a feasible explanation to that particular question. When I was firing the Number 4, all the rounds, Eley, Lapua and Neroxin et al left the barrel with a much lower report than what anyone might expect.
I fired a couple of these old KF as well as a few Nroxins in one of the Brno rifles lying around. And the cracks were loud and clear. Which meant, I couldn't really blame the ammo right away without getting deeper into the problem, especially since I preserve ammo with extreme caution and keep them as dry as possible. All these ammo, especially the KF and the Neroxin, were kept in the same box and approximately for the same period.

It was under these circumstances that I tried to reach a conclusion. I will be the happiest man if I am proved wrong But please read my reply to Timmy's post and give your valued opinion.

Regards
TC

I'll guarantee you, if hot gas is leaking out of the chamber, you will know it immediately and unpleasantly!

The cartridge case is often looked at as something different from the gun, but it is actually an integral part of the gun and the gun's system. It's purpose (among others) is to seal the chamber. Even though it fits loosely, when the gun is fired, hot, expanding gasses will seal the breech. If this does not happen because the chamber is too large, the case will fail somewhere and hot, expanding gasses under great pressure (even in shotguns and .22s) will come out to greet you.

This will usually happen when the chamber is too large or headspace is excessive. The hot gasses will expand the case beyond the ability of the brass to stretch that far, and the case will fail. Afterwards, you will see a split or even a full separation.

Timmy,
This did happen once that day. One of the KF ammo went off with a distinctive "fiss" and I could feel some pungent hot gas on my nose. The gas went right inside the receiver and even came out through the gap in the trigger guard ! The bullet however left the barrel and hit the paper.
Jabbar Bhai, observing every shot from close by, immediately said : "Be careful."
That particular KF case certainly did not seal the chamber as it is supposed to in any cartridge firearm.
I inspected the case. It had swollen but there was no split. I have seen many split cases in my life and there was no sign of pressure rising to an excessive level for the copper to contain it. So, how did the gas hit my face ? Especially in an ammo that has already lost some of its power - the keyholing slug being the proof.
I stopped shooting for a while and checked the paper.

I resumed shooting and the rest of the rounds went off fine. The Eleys made groups, so did a few more Lapuas that were hiding in the depths of the my pocket.
No more "fiss", no more keyholes, no ejection failures, no expanded cases.... Yet the reports were all too low for a .22 LR.

Tell me my friend, what can be the mystery .


TC

[TC]

Yup and that is why you'll hear me periodically harping about wearing eye protection of some kind when shooting.

XL, my glasses saved my right eye that day. The gad hit the fibre lens and created a moist cloud. I had to pour some water to clean it.

I know you, Timmy and Two Rivers will possibly kill me for hiding all this information in my range report.
Honestly speaking, I did not want to bother you guys. In fact had CK Da not mentioned about the "low noise" I would have kept this a secret and carry out my own investigation.

What is you opinion XL ?


TC

[TC]

After what the gentlemen pointed out above, maybe it would be an idea TC to examine the spent casing under a magnifying glass to spot any abnormalities, expansion, cracks etc.? I seem to be eternally curious!

Kalyan da, now that the cat is out of the bag I will check the cases all over again under a magnifying glass and look for anything abnormal that my eyes might have missed. I hardly get any time these days because of work pressure but have a long leave till Republic Day. Will post photos if I find something really abnormal.

As I write, I realise how fruitful this last phase of discussion has been for me. I probably overlooked a few things that needed attention.

Thank you my friends


TC

[TwoRivers]

TC: Well, that could have been a "hangfire", when ignition of the powder is not instantaneous due to a faulty primer. In that case the pressure inside the case builds up slowly and is not high enough initially to seal the case against the chamber. As pressure builds enough to release the bullet, gas will also flow back around the case. Cheers.

[xl_target]

I know you, Timmy and Two Rivers will possibly kill me for hiding all this information in my range report.
Honestly speaking, I did not want to bother you guys. In fact had CK Da not mentioned about the "low noise" I would have kept this a secret and carry out my own investigation.

What is you opinion XL ?

I have several .22 LR rifles and some of them sound different from others. My 25" barreled Polish military training rifle is very quiet. With some low powered .22 LR cartridges, it quieter than a good springer air rifle.
My Henry lever action with its 18 1/4" barrel was reasonably quiet and exceptionally quiet with shorts.
My Ruger 10/22's (18" barrels) are loud compared to the above rifles.

If all your .22 LR ammo is consistently quieter in that rifle than in others, I wouldn't worry about it. It's only when you get a bunch of different sounds out of the same batch of ammo that I would worry.
The biggest thing to watch out for is that if you get a dud or squib and end up with a bullet stuck in the barrel. If a particular cartridge sounds different, visually check the barrel for obstructions before firing another round.

In my experience, some .22 LR rifles are quieter that others, usually longer barreled ones are quieter than shorter barreled rifles.
This effect is more pronounced in longer barrels as most of the powder is burnt up in a 16" or 18" barreled rifle.

[timmy]

This did happen once that day. One of the KF ammo went off with a distinctive "fiss" and I could feel some pungent hot gas on my nose. The gas went right inside the receiver and even came out through the gap in the trigger guard ! The bullet however left the barrel and hit the paper.
Jabbar Bhai, observing every shot from close by, immediately said : "Be careful."
That particular KF case certainly did not seal the chamber as it is supposed to in any cartridge firearm.
I inspected the case. It had swollen but there was no split. I have seen many split cases in my life and there was no sign of pressure rising to an excessive level for the copper to contain it. So, how did the gas hit my face ? Especially in an ammo that has already lost some of its power - the keyholing slug being the proof.
I stopped shooting for a while and checked the paper.

I resumed shooting and the rest of the rounds went off fine. The Eleys made groups, so did a few more Lapuas that were hiding in the depths of the my pocket.
No more "fiss", no more keyholes, no ejection failures, no expanded cases.... Yet the reports were all too low for a .22 LR.

Tell me my friend, what can be the mystery .

Well, sir, you have me stumped! Following your description, there must be a place where gasses are leaking, but yet the passage is small enough that the brass is not expanding into it. Both in centerfire and .22, my experience has been that the case will split, so I have to confess an inability to go any further. My suspicion would have to be some sort of chamber problem, but since you are not experiencing split cases, I can't say.

I don't think any reasonable person is expecting that your rifle is just off of the assembly line, although it certainly looks like it.

One thing: if you only experience the problem with one kind of ammunition, that would tend to tell me that one brand of case is perhaps harder than another, but I would guess that it would take some amount of shooting to draw a significant conclusion.

My Marlin 39A has a 24" barrel, and it is pretty quiet. I now have this little Chipmunk thing I got for the grandkids that has a 16" barrel, but I can't recall how quiet it is.

One more thing" I wouldn't rule out gasses getting around the bullet, such as if the freebore in front of the chamber is worn. This could happen from injudicious cleaning over the years. Gas can get around the bullet before the bullet seals the bore in these cases.

??

Sadly, that's the best I can do at the moment.

[TC]

TC: Well, that could have been a "hangfire", when ignition of the powder is not instantaneous due to a faulty primer. In that case the pressure inside the case builds up slowly and is not high enough initially to seal the case against the chamber. As pressure builds enough to release the bullet, gas will also flow back around the case. Cheers.

Two Rivers,
I have experienced several hang fires in the past and with ammo in bigger calibers. An old 375 magnum ammo once went off almost three seconds after the firing pin hit the primer. The neck of the brass cracked. It was a bolt action rifle. There was no hot gas leaking through the breech back into my face.
While I accept that the old .22 KF ammo that blew smoke at me at the range indeed went off late, my theory on gas leaking through the breech seems correct as well. The case, no matter how fresh the ammo is, cannot expand such much as to sit tightly against the chamber wall - Simply because years of polishing has taken too much metal away from the chamber. Exactly what I had suspected. See the closeup photos of the breech I took this Sunday. The gap looks like a canal to my eyes.




TC

[TC]

Timmy wrote

Well, sir, you have me stumped! Following your description, there must be a place where gasses are leaking, but yet the passage is small enough that the brass is not expanding into it. Both in centerfire and .22, my experience has been that the case will split, so I have to confess an inability to go any further. My suspicion would have to be some sort of chamber problem, but since you are not experiencing split cases, I can't say.

I don't think any reasonable person is expecting that your rifle is just off of the assembly line, although it certainly looks like it.

One thing: if you only experience the problem with one kind of ammunition, that would tend to tell me that one brand of case is perhaps harder than another, but I would guess that it would take some amount of shooting to draw a significant conclusion.

My Marlin 39A has a 24" barrel, and it is pretty quiet. I now have this little Chipmunk thing I got for the grandkids that has a 16" barrel, but I can't recall how quiet it is.

One more thing" I wouldn't rule out gasses getting around the bullet, such as if the freebore in front of the chamber is worn. This could happen from injudicious cleaning over the years. Gas can get around the bullet before the bullet seals the bore in these cases.

??

Sadly, that's the best I can do at the moment.

Timmy, you are spot on about gas leaking and my suspicion was not off the mark.
The diameter of the chamber mouth has got bigger over years of use (and possibly abuse as well) and chamber polishing too many times; just what I suspected.
As a result almost all the cases, no matter what the brand is, are swelling to a certain angle. In the Number 4, 50 per cent of the base of the little 22 case rests inside the half moon section of the extractor while the rest 50 per cent is supposed to rest against the upper part of the chamber wall, Since this part has got eroded due to too much polishing, the cases are getting bent at the point of discharge. Its impossible to study the entire case while the rifle is being fired but I can guess that while the projectile is leaving the case the latter is moving upward (inside the chamber) creating a swelling at the point where it is being held by the extractor.
I followed CK Da's advice and studied all the empties. And he was right. Inspection revealed the mystery. Please see the pics









In the photo below you will see the mark made by the firing pin is deep and clear. But the swelling can be detected even from the top if you look closely



And here are closeups of the action. The chamber clearly looks bigger than it should be

One more thing" I wouldn't rule out gasses getting around the bullet, such as if the freebore in front of the chamber is worn. This could happen from injudicious cleaning over the years. Gas can get around the bullet before the bullet seals the bore in these cases.

While this may not have happened just yet - given the somewhat fair groups the rifle is still capable of - I cannot rule out the possibility of gases playing around because this rifle is chambered for .22 short, long and LR - which means the freebore is smooth.

My friend this rifle has clearly gone through a lot. Hopefully I can keep her in some comfort after a century.
Thanks for your keen observation and standing by my side


TC

[timmy]

TC, this may be further than you want to go with this, but here is an option:

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools ... 10974.aspx

http://www.shootingtimes.com/gunsmithin ... er_200810/

Just a thought

[TC]

XL wrote

I have several .22 LR rifles and some of them sound different from others. My 25" barreled Polish military training rifle is very quiet. With some low powered .22 LR cartridges, it quieter than a good springer air rifle.
My Henry lever action with its 18 1/4" barrel was reasonably quiet and exceptionally quiet with shorts.
My Ruger 10/22's (18" barrels) are loud compared to the above rifles.

If all your .22 LR ammo is consistently quieter in that rifle than in others, I wouldn't worry about it. It's only when you get a bunch of different sounds out of the same batch of ammo that I would worry.
The biggest thing to watch out for is that if you get a dud or squib and end up with a bullet stuck in the barrel. If a particular cartridge sounds different, visually check the barrel for obstructions before firing another round.

In my experience, some .22 LR rifles are quieter that others, usually longer barreled ones are quieter than shorter barreled rifles.
This effect is more pronounced in longer barrels as most of the powder is burnt up in a 16" or 18" barreled rifle.

XL,
Completely agree with you on variation of sound depending on barrel lengths and actions. My BSA Martini falling block .22 with 32 inch match rifle was quiet as a breeze compared to my 18 inch Winchester bolt action. Semi autos, like your 10/22 are supposed to be even less quieter.
This rifle, as you must have already read in my last two posts, has been diagnosed with a different disease which i may only describe as "internal gas leaking silencing system"

Here's a closeup video of the action with a steel empty in the chamber. Watch how the chamber has got bigger and how tightly the extractor holds the case (thanks to my gunsmithing skills) and how positively and fast it throws out the empty. Its obvious that the case will swell towards the upper wall of the chamber where its getting a free space to expand.

[youtube][/youtube]

Thank you once again for patiently going through the last posts. The case seems to have been solved after all.
And a special thanks goes to CK Da. It was he who advised me to study all the empties carefully.


TC

[TC]

TC, this may be further than you want to go with this, but here is an option:

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools ... 10974.aspx

http://www.shootingtimes.com/gunsmithin ... er_200810/

Just a thought

Very helpful thought Timmy... very wise and helpful.
Yes a liner could save this old eroded rifle and give the rifle years more on the range. But getting one into India may not be easy.
Let me give this a serious thought.

Thank you my friend. Your posts on this thread has made me realize how deeply you appreciate the old beauty.
Regards

TC

[timmy]

TC: Yes, I realize that there may be some problem to getting stuff like this shipped. Besides that, you would need to locate a chambering reamer that you could use. All a long shot (he he - no pun intended!)

If the thing shoots ok and nothing is flying apart, and as long as you have your glasses, maybe you should just enjoy the fun for awhile.

[Ramandeep]

TC ji what a marvelous restoration you have done on the Remington Rolling block and a great childhood fantasy to be turned into reality I must say quite nothing like this ever feels. A very comprehensive detail on the restoration and the gun, highly inspiring.

Regards

Raman

[TwoRivers]

Yes, TC, that chamber has seen better days. There would have been no questions if we had seen the pictures of the fired cases. The surprise being, that you shot it. There is no difference between a LR chamber, and one for 'Short, Long, and Long Rifle". Also, a .22 RF chamber has no "freebore", just a short leade.

While a burned-out .22RF chamber can be safely restored by bushing, in the "old" days we did that with a section of engine push rod, I am sure your whole barrel is beyond hope. Re-lining, as Tim suggested, being the remedy. A skilled lathe operator can easily cut a .22 RF chamber with a boring tool made from a quality Allen wrench, if a reamer is not available. Even a drill bit with corners stoned rounded can be used in the lathe for cutting the chamber.

Whether we can get you a liner to India, is the question. Our department of state has classified rifle barrels as "implements of war", with import and export subject to controls. Cheers.

[ckkalyan]

Thank you TC for the feedback and the closeup video of the action - very edifying!

Now we can officially start calling it the click-click-click of of the Remington Rolling Block (like clicks of the SA colts)